Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes)

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-francesco-
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2017/03/06 16:33:27 (permalink)

Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes)

Hi all.
I was composing with Sonar 8.5 and everything went more and less fine, until at a certain point, without any manual changes, I couldn't insert virtual synths anymore. More specifically, the boxes that appear after "Virtual Synths" under "Insert" menu (Cakewalk Sound Center, Rapture, Vst Plugins ecc.), became grey and I couldn't do anything with them while until the previous track i could use them to insert VSTs without any problems. At first I thought it was related to an hypotetical maximum number of midi tracks, but deleting tracks doesn't fix it. The only thing I could do was to undo my last action ("insert midi track" or "insert virtual synth") only to fall back into the same problem when I did it again. Since I need various tracks on a single project to work on my compositions I am getting quite mad at this, because it means that from a certain point on, I can't do anything and it just seem that I have limited actions regardless the number of tracks. It doesn't even always happen after 5 tracks because previously it happened when I only had 3. Please, someone help me!
post edited by -francesco- - 2017/03/11 17:29:06
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    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth (Insert VST grey boxes) 2017/03/11 17:26:32 (permalink)
    Somebody, please?
    #2
    JonD
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/11 18:21:25 (permalink)
    Just to be clear, are you saying this happens with a brand new project?  When did this behavior start? 
     
    There are many ways to insert a VSTi.  What happens say, when you try from the Synth Rack or right-click on a track?

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    #3
    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/11 18:39:09 (permalink)
    It started from my very first project. When I insert my first midi track with insert ---> virtual synths ---> Cakewalk Sound Center (for example) everything works fine. I can repeat this, creating other midi tracks up to a certain numerb of times (5 or even 3). After that I can't repeat this process and create a new midi track with vsts anymore. Anyway I tried to figure out what is the cause and it is the effect (regardless it is Cakewalk Sound Center or Kontakt or whatever) because before inserting a new vst track everything is fine, while after doing that I can't insert one anymore and that is the only thing I did in between (if I undo inserting my last midi track everything is fine again while if I redo there it comes again).
    #4
    JonD
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/11 18:53:10 (permalink)
    Seems odd that after 3 or 5 tracks, the boxes become greyed out.  Sounds like the behavior of a demo version.
     
    Did you install from a disc or a download?  If the latter, was it from somewhere other than the Cakewalk site? 

    SONAR Platinum, Win 8.1 Pro, i7 2600K@4.2Ghz, Asus P8Z68 Deluxe, 16GB Crucial DDR3, GeForce GT 730, Samsung 32" and Dell 24" Monitors, Steinberg MR816X, Focusrite VRM Box, Kawai MP11 Piano, Event ALP Monitors, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro, Too Many Plugins, My lucky hat.
    #5
    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/11 20:10:06 (permalink)
    I installed it from the disc and registered it regularly on Cakewalk.
    #6
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/12 02:13:09 (permalink)
    I've also never heard of this. Could it be memory problems? How much RAM does your system have?
    #7
    JonD
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/12 03:49:16 (permalink)
    Yes, it would be helpful if you gave a brief rundown of your system specs. And are you running 32 or 64 bit Sonar?
     
    Also, a long shot -- I remember right around the time of Sonar 8/8.5 that "Run as administrator" became a thing to watch out for.  Try starting Sonar that way (Right-click on shortcut, choose Run as administrator) and see if there's any change.

    SONAR Platinum, Win 8.1 Pro, i7 2600K@4.2Ghz, Asus P8Z68 Deluxe, 16GB Crucial DDR3, GeForce GT 730, Samsung 32" and Dell 24" Monitors, Steinberg MR816X, Focusrite VRM Box, Kawai MP11 Piano, Event ALP Monitors, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro, Too Many Plugins, My lucky hat.
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    abacab
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/12 04:17:23 (permalink)
    I also think that the version of Windows used could be relevant.  There are bundled C++ program libraries and API's that older programs such as Sonar 8.5 were developed around, that may not be compatible with the current Windows versions.  I also have Sonar 8.5, but have not attempted to use it since Windows XP.
     
    I would download a demo version of the latest Sonar and compare it with what you have on your system.

    Cakewalk: Sonar Platinum x64 2017-10; X3e; Dimension Pro; Rapture, Z3TA+2  Other: Akai VIP; AIR AIEP 3; BIAB; Ignite; Iris 2; SampleTank 3; SONiVOX; SynthMaster; Syntronik; VocalizerPro; Tracktion Waveform OS: Win10 Pro x64 1703 System: Homebuilt Asus; i3 3.4Ghz; 8GB DDR3; Intel HD Graphics; Dual Monitors; Samsung EVO 850 SSD, 250GB; WD 1.0TB 7200rpm; PCIe FireWire  Audio: M-Audio FW-410;  Controllers: A-300PRO; Alesis VX49; CME Xkey  Hardware: Roland JV880; JV1080; XP-30; Alesis QS-6; Casio CZ-1000; Mackie 1202
    #9
    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/12 11:32:37 (permalink)
    I tried running as administrator but it doesn't chage anything.
     
    I was beginning to think about a RAM problem too. Is there any way to give more RAM to Sonar? Anyway I' m using Windows 10 and 64 bit version and here are more info about my pc:
     
    Processor: Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU N2840 2,16GHz
    Installed Ram: 4.00 GB (3,89 usable GB)
     
    (Or at least that's what I found on my control panel)
    #10
    57Gregy
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/12 13:53:07 (permalink)
    Open the Synth Rack. How many synths are showing as already inserted?
    What program are you running which might have a limit on soft synths?

    Greg 

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    #11
    abacab
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/12 15:38:43 (permalink)
    -francesco-
    I tried running as administrator but it doesn't chage anything.
     
    I was beginning to think about a RAM problem too. Is there any way to give more RAM to Sonar? Anyway I' m using Windows 10 and 64 bit version and here are more info about my pc:
     
    Processor: Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU N2840 2,16GHz
    Installed Ram: 4.00 GB (3,89 usable GB)
     
    (Or at least that's what I found on my control panel)




    4GB of RAM is not a lot to work with in Windows 10 and Sonar, especially if you are using virtual instruments like Kontakt.
     
    If you open Windows task manager when your system is idle, how much available RAM do you have to work with?
     
    My Windows 10 uses about 1.9 GB at idle here.  If I launch Sonar with a new empty project, my RAM use goes up to about 2.0 GB.
     
    With these virtual instruments inserted, 2x Dimension Pro + 2x Rapture + 2x Kontakt Player + 10x Cakewalk Sound Center, I am using 3.7 GB.  If I was using larger sample sets the memory would probably get used up way faster.
     
    If Windows was running out of memory, you should get a Windows popup warning to close some programs.  I believe that Sonar will use as much RAM as it needs, but allocating memory to Sonar is up to Windows.  Windows will attempt to move anything inactive that it can to the swapfile to free up real memory, but there are limits.
     
    So I would definitely check your RAM usage with Task Manager.  If you are not running out of memory, then I would suspect it may be a software issue causing your menu anomalies.

    Cakewalk: Sonar Platinum x64 2017-10; X3e; Dimension Pro; Rapture, Z3TA+2  Other: Akai VIP; AIR AIEP 3; BIAB; Ignite; Iris 2; SampleTank 3; SONiVOX; SynthMaster; Syntronik; VocalizerPro; Tracktion Waveform OS: Win10 Pro x64 1703 System: Homebuilt Asus; i3 3.4Ghz; 8GB DDR3; Intel HD Graphics; Dual Monitors; Samsung EVO 850 SSD, 250GB; WD 1.0TB 7200rpm; PCIe FireWire  Audio: M-Audio FW-410;  Controllers: A-300PRO; Alesis VX49; CME Xkey  Hardware: Roland JV880; JV1080; XP-30; Alesis QS-6; Casio CZ-1000; Mackie 1202
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    JonD
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/12 15:51:58 (permalink)
    57Gregy
    ...What program are you running which might have a limit on soft synths?

     
    You mean like a sample player?  The Cakewalk VIs are greyed out so I can't see how a 3rd party application could create this issue.  (Well, one possible exception would be something like VE Pro, but he's not running anything like that AFAIK).

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    abacab
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/12 15:56:51 (permalink)
    Something to consider is that you can pick up Sonar Home Studio for $49, or Sonar Artist for $99.  An easy way to get up to date, and either one can host your virtual instruments.
    http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Versions#start
     
    These are current versions of Sonar and are supported for Windows 10.

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    stevec
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/13 02:59:24 (permalink)
    Just to clarify.... you refer to using SONAR 8.5 which goes back a few years, but running on Win10.   Were you running SONAR 8.5 on a different system/OS before?   If so, is this a problem that didn't happen before but is new to the Win10 install?

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    #15
    57Gregy
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/13 13:51:20 (permalink)
    JonD
    57Gregy
    ...What program are you running which might have a limit on soft synths?

     
    You mean like a sample player?  The Cakewalk VIs are greyed out so I can't see how a 3rd party application could create this issue.  (Well, one possible exception would be something like VE Pro, but he's not running anything like that AFAIK).




    No, like (older) Music Creator which has a limit on the number of synths which can be run at the same time.
    But, duh, it's right there in the OP's first sentence, SONAR 8.5, which has no limit.
    That speed-reading course I took 30 years ago isn't working.

    Greg 

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    Everything is better with pie. 

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    #16
    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/14 17:03:16 (permalink)
    I actually installed it directly on Windows 10 and I never ran Sonar before.
    #17
    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/20 17:07:12 (permalink)
    Does the fact that it's Sonar LE change anything?
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/20 18:10:00 (permalink)
    Yes, SONAR LE limited the number of soft synths to 8 IIRC.

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    #19
    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/21 13:23:30 (permalink)
    Mmh, I see...if that's the case, I guess the solution would be to upgrade the software, like abacab suggested, right? Anyway I was looking at the link he posted and there is a box that says "Total Instruments", wich are still 5 for Sonar Home Studio and 12 for Sonar Artist. This means that Sonar Home Studio wouln't actually change anything from this point of view, while Sonar Artist would do?
    #20
    scook
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/21 13:36:16 (permalink)
    "Total instruments" refers to the number of instrument plug-ins bundled with the product, not the number of instrument plug-ins supported in a project. For track/project limits see the General section at the top of http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=Comparison.html
     
     
    There is an error in the bundled instruments section for SONAR Home Studio. This product includes 6 instrument plug-ins: TTS-1, Studio Instruments Suite (Guitar, Drums, Piano and Strings), and Rapture Session.
     
    #21
    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/21 13:50:05 (permalink)
    Ok. So can I use more then 5 plug-ins and more then 5 vst midi tracks in Sonar Home studio? In Sonar LE I was using a 16 midi trakcs project, so I thought I could actually run up to 16 vst midi tracks in the same project. I never thought it could be a program limitation.
    #22
    scook
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/21 13:59:16 (permalink)
    To use all 16 MIDI tracks in LE or the 128 in Home Studio would require using a multitimbral synth plug-in or an external module. For example, TTS-1 has 16 inputs and 4 outputs.  One TTS-1 instance could max out the MIDI track count in LE. Eight instances which is the maximum number of instruments per-project in Home Studio also maxes out the MIDI track count.
    #23
    abacab
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/21 14:01:16 (permalink)
    scook
    "Total instruments" refers to the number of instrument plug-ins bundled with the product, not the number of instrument plug-ins supported in a project. For track/project limits see the General section at the top of http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=Comparison.html
     
    There is an error in the bundled instruments section for SONAR Home Studio. This product includes 6 instrument plug-ins: TTS-1, Studio Instruments Suite (Guitar, Drums, Piano and Strings), and Rapture Session.
     



    According to that comparison, Home Studio is limited to 8 instruments, where Artist and above are unlimited.

    Cakewalk: Sonar Platinum x64 2017-10; X3e; Dimension Pro; Rapture, Z3TA+2  Other: Akai VIP; AIR AIEP 3; BIAB; Ignite; Iris 2; SampleTank 3; SONiVOX; SynthMaster; Syntronik; VocalizerPro; Tracktion Waveform OS: Win10 Pro x64 1703 System: Homebuilt Asus; i3 3.4Ghz; 8GB DDR3; Intel HD Graphics; Dual Monitors; Samsung EVO 850 SSD, 250GB; WD 1.0TB 7200rpm; PCIe FireWire  Audio: M-Audio FW-410;  Controllers: A-300PRO; Alesis VX49; CME Xkey  Hardware: Roland JV880; JV1080; XP-30; Alesis QS-6; Casio CZ-1000; Mackie 1202
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    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/23 10:03:29 (permalink)
    But, if I uderstood well, I can use those 8 instruments for all 16 midi tracks, right?
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    abacab
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/23 16:01:09 (permalink)
    -francesco-
    But, if I uderstood well, I can use those 8 instruments for all 16 midi tracks, right?




    Yes, I believe that should be correct.  You get 8 instrument instances to work with, but can have up to 128 MIDI tracks.
     
    This could be useful for example, with the multi-timbral GM synth Cakewalk TTS-1.  You can route 16 separate MIDI tracks to one instrument, by sending each track to a different MIDI channel 1-16, with a different sound assigned on each channel in TTS-1.
     
    There are other multi-timbral samplers which you could use this method with as well, such as NI Kontakt, Steinberg Halcion, or IK Sampletank.
     
    Most other VST instruments can only play one sound at a time.  There may be some exceptions, such as AIR Xpand!2, which plays up to four parts on four channels.  This can be found on sale for as cheap as $1, and comes with 2500+ presets covering most instruments
    https://www.audiodeluxe.com/products/virtual-instruments/air-xpand2

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    #26
    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/27 15:09:51 (permalink)
    Thank you very much! So; is there any difference between buying Sonar Home/Artist from 0 or from upgrading Sonar LE? Do I have the same prices and procedures or does it change anything between the two situations?
    #27
    scook
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/27 15:28:22 (permalink)
    I am not sure if LE qualifies for a discount. The store computes prices based on the products in your account. To see the actual price for a version of SONAR clicking the "Buy Now" button. The store will apply any discount due based on the contents of your account. Remove the unwanted product(s) from the cart. After performing this exercise, the store usually shows the adjusted prices in the catalog pages.
    #28
    -francesco-
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/30 17:21:06 (permalink)
    It it the same price so no discount I guess
    Anyway...by installing one of them I will simply stop having Sonar LE and will start to have Sonar Premium / Artist instead, right?
    #29
    scook
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    Re: Can't insert more then 5 virtual synth ("Insert VST" grey boxes) 2017/03/30 17:29:40 (permalink)
    You will have both. Cakewalk installs each version of SONAR in its own directory, however; all versions share some utilities and plug-ins. 32bit versions share one set of utilities, 64bit share another. If you do not want LE installed after installing a new version, consider deleting it before installing the newer version.
    #30
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