Helpful ReplyCard For MIDI Controller

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nathanCFD
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2017/02/09 16:57:30 (permalink)

Card For MIDI Controller

I was hoping for some guidance regarding MIDI keyboard controllers, soft-synths and latency when playing live.  I use Sonar Producer and have used Cakewalk software for years and years. Just personal work, non-pro so forgive my cluelessness.  I primarily use Sonar to create MIDI files for background tracks for my Clavinova CVP.
 
I've used a Yamaha Motif 8 Synthesizer as a MIDI controller forever, but it's huge so I decided to downgrade to a M-Audio 49 Key controller and to use the basic patches for live sound while I sequence the MIDI. And, the latency is terrible. PC has a SB Z card, not a pro card but top of the line for SB. I also tried in a PC with just the basic MOBO Realtech driver.  Installed AISOForAll, still not fast enough to keep up. I assumed I'd be okay since I'm not using any effects and the basic GM patches, guess not.
 
After researching, I understand that I never noticed the latency using the Motif since I was hearing the real time playback from the synthesizer itself and now that the PC is the instrument, the latency is noticeable.
 
Anyone know any tweaks?  Or, can anyone suggest a card that will help.  Realizing that I don't need a card for studio quality mixing, just something that will allow me to play with these basic patches to sequence a MIDI.
#1
dwardzala
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Re: Card For MIDI Controller 2017/02/09 17:49:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby nathanCFD 2017/02/09 18:37:27
You might try the WASAPI driver mode, but if you want low latency, you are going to have to invest in a pro sound card.  These are more commonly known as Audio Interfaces.  You might look at Focusrite as an inexpensive but functional audio interface.

Dave
Main Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD
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#2
nathanCFD
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Re: Card For MIDI Controller 2017/02/09 18:45:32 (permalink)
Thank you for replying Dave! So, here I'm going to sound like a total idiot, but... I actually bought a Zoom U-44 Audio Interface, it's still in the box.  I bought it because the SB Z doesn't have a SPDIF input and the Motif has SPDIF, not Digital Optical.  I figured that if I wanted to record anything from the MO in the future, I'd need a way to get the digital audio into the system.  Are you saying that this Audio Interface will somehow "take the place" of a physical sound card and help with the latency issue?
 
 
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azslow3
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Re: Card For MIDI Controller 2017/02/10 05:53:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby nathanCFD 2017/02/11 21:04:42
An audio interface can help with latency, but they can be quite different in latency...
To get a good advise here, please specify which scale of latency you experience now and with which latency you can work.
May be an example explains better what I mean. I have DP (Kawai) and 3 MIDI controllers. Also I have several computers with different audio interfaces, including build-in, SB, Fireware and USB. Note that all combinations are "playable" for me, but some are not nice to play:
* DP direct. The same as you with Motif, there is no perceptible latency. Any digital device has some latency, it is just small. I have not measure real latency of DP, but I guess it is around the same as in digital mixers plus MIDI part, ~2ms + ~2-3ms.
* very close to that is my setup with Fireware interface in "extreme" (for that interface) settings: ~3ms for audio output. I guess USB MIDI keyboard adds at least 2-4ms more (I have feeling that my Roland with special "hi speed" driver is better than generic USB MIDI I use for other keyboards and DP). Real MIDI connection (big 5 pin connectors) is old and slow,  1 note takes ~1ms to transfer, so 10 finger chord takes ~10ms to transfer! Musicians are using such equipment live on stage...
* next is my old notebook with build-in interface under ASIO, ~10ms audio plus again 2-4ms MIDI
* my "slowest" setup is USB interface with audio latency ~10ms with DP connected throw USB, which looks like add additional 6-10ms (my USB MIDI keyboard(s) for some reason have lower latency then DP).
 
I mean the worse case is ~20ms latency. Unlike for singing, that is still playable. If I switch on local DP sound in parallel with SoftSynth, there is clear "doubling" of notes, but is is not (!) like DP note plays, delay, SoftSynth note plays (as long as SoftSynth is also a piano, in case it is slow strings there is a huge expected attack...). I have tested that I can still play simple piano peaces with up to ~30ms latency. It is well known that fingers and brain can "auto-compensate" the latency up to some level.
 
Note that default ASIO buffer for ASIO4ALL is very conservative (and not playable). The same for SB ASIO (SB is quite bad in latency, independent from what they advertise). And the same will be with U-44 ASIO. You should adjust the buffer all the way down till you get audio pop/clicks/cracks and then start to increase till you no longer have problems. Note that when you are recording MIDI only, it can be acceptable to have periodic (2-3 per minute) clicks during recording as the price for low latency.
 
Also note that many USB audio interfaces, especially older generation, have quite big latency (comparable with your SB). While most old PCI/Fireware interfaces are good in that respect (you can get them second hand for under $40, but not all are working under Windows 10!).  
 
 

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#4
dwardzala
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Re: Card For MIDI Controller 2017/02/10 14:26:51 (permalink)
I think azslow answered your question, but in case he didn't, yes the U-44 replaces your soundcard.

Dave
Main Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD
MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller
Win10 x64 Home
Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d)
 
Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD)
M-Box Mini v. 2
Win 10 x64 Home
Sonar 2016.10 Platinum
 
Check out my original music:
https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
 
 
#5
nathanCFD
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Re: Card For MIDI Controller 2017/02/11 21:05:34 (permalink)
Thanks Dave and Azslow for helping; I've been working with the U-44 and it's definitely better.
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sock monkey
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Re: Card For MIDI Controller 2017/02/11 22:14:27 (permalink)
You bug ger around with sub standard gear, not a great idea for gigging. Myself I want super bullet proof equipment and redundancy. To play live with decent latency you need to go up the food chain to the $500 price point. Below that RTL will still be only bearable.
Check out interfaces from RME and Motu. The Motu ultra lite mk 4. Not only could be your interface but it's a stand alone digital mixer as well. This is how things are done now.

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