Splat 
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Change project tempo without altering anything.
Hi
I want to change the tempo of the whole project but I don't want any of my existing MIDI and audio to stretch to the tempo (stays the same). Ultimately all that will change is the metronome.
Current attempts always alters the audio/MIDI tracks.
I'm probably missing something simple. Any ideas?
Thanks
Alex
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brundlefly
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 11:37:20
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/03/12 19:45:21
Set your Now time at the bar that equals the current tempo +1. Hit Shift+M (Set Measure/Beat At Now), enter the new tempo +1 as the measure to set and OK. SONAR will change the timeline tempo around existing MIDI and Audio without altering its absolute playback timing.
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Splat
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 17:58:47
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Thanks Dave. I tried it but could get it to work.
I want to change the project tempo from 88 BPM to 95 BPM for instance, without changing any MIDI or audio under these conditions, it only seemed to accept ratios.
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brundlefly
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 18:41:11
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/03/12 19:45:16
So what was the result exactly? Placing Now time at 89:01:000 and setting that absolute time be measure 96, Beat 1.000 should do the trick.
I'm not not sure what you mean about ratios...?
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slartabartfast
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 19:03:44
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Are you saying you want to insert a tempo change that will affect the whole project from that point of insertion onward without affecting midi timing, OR are you saying you want to reset the tempo from the beginning of the project that will not affect midi timing in already existing tracks? If the former, insert tempo change should work. If the latter, you probably need to set the clip properties time base field to H:M:S:F (SMPT, absolute time) and lock the clip before you make the tempo change.
post edited by slartabartfast - 2014/03/12 19:52:48
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konradh
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 19:29:36
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Of course, the point of this thread is to get you the help you need, but is it OK if I ask why you want to do this (because I'm curious)? I am trying to understand why you would, for example, record audio and 120 BPM and then change the tempo to 110 while keeping the existing audio playing back at 120. It seems like that would sound messed up. I feel like I am probably juist misunderstanding something key here.
Thanks!
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Splat
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 19:41:31
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Well basically I'm trying to solve a mystery Konrad.
I gave a click track to a drummer (the metronome in fact), 88 BPM on the project it seems with a set of headphones. All appeared working and nothing more about it was said again. When the session was over I thought I'd check the click to see if it was (more or less) in time (yes I should have done it during the session, schoolboy error, but the gig was short notice). Well the click was still there but it was NOT the same tempo that the drummer played. Also note there are no tempo changes in the project.
Now if it was the case the drummer was ignoring the tempo and creating his own then the guy is some sort of genius because he seems perfectly in time in another tempo whilst listening to a completely different tempo. Not only that the issue is not only in one project, but about 8 of them (2 songs across 8 or so takes).
Weird.
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mettelus
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 19:48:03
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FWIW, do not fight Dave on this one, the Shift-M trick works!
post edited by mettelus - 2014/03/12 21:05:53
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Splat
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 19:55:39
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Lynn
Alex, I think this is what happens when you change the tempo from 88 bpm to 95 bpm without expecting any change to occur. You may have just answered the question you posed in your thread about changing the tempo. Surely, X3E will solve this dilemma ;)
Lynn no tempo changes were made during the recording, the project was set at a constant tempo before the recording and it was checked out before recording. There are no tempo change events in the project either...I'm trying to make the tempo change right now to see if I can sync up to the drummer. I'm not aware of any tempo change bugs in Sonar X3D yet. Cheers... Thanks for the advice about tempo change Dave, I'll check it out again.
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Lynn
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 20:05:19
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☄ Helpfulby CakeAlexS 2014/03/14 13:10:11
Alex, this is an interesting conundrum. One of my all time favorite bands is King Crimson, who've I've been blessed to see live twice in the last 12 years. At the last concert, they used two drummers, playing two different tempos while Fripp and Belew were playing polyrhythmic guitar riffs. Somehow it just works if the musicians can stay focused. And, sometimes a tempo can work at different meters, fooling the listener into thinking it's one tempo while, actually being a different tempo. It depends on the song and the style of music. And, don't even get me started on psychoacoustic phenomena. I can see where this would be problematic when doing overdubs after the fact.
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brundlefly
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 21:30:11
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☼ Best Answerby CakeAlexS 2014/03/14 13:09:53
If you know for certain that the 96BPM tempo is what the drummer was actually working to, the procedure I gave will work. But if that tempo was just an estimate, you might do better to count out 8 or more measures while listening to the drums, and then Shift+M with the Now time on that transient to set the actual measure and beat by what the drummer played. That's the real intended use of Shift+M.
Incidentally, that tempo ratio is very close to 48/44.1kHz. So I suspect this is all due to a clocking issue... or maybe you already knew that, and that's how you calculated the target tempo...?
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Splat
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 21:41:47
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Well nothing clever is going on with the MIDI clock, all the bog standard defaults.
Drummer was playing my Octapad triggering Addictive Drums, everything is in sync... just this "why is the project tempo set differently in the project" mystery.
I'll check it all out tomorrow... thanks for the advice...
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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bapu
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 21:42:32
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I once had a MIDI file that I opened with SONAR. The project opened to some tempo (don't recall but let's jusy call it 110 for argument sake). Now this was a cover song that I JUST KNEW was not 110. It was 80 BPM based based on that MixMesiter tool of the original song. When I laid the original song in the project along side the MIDI it was def in sync with the MIDI.
So the MIDI was probably created at a tempo of 110 (FWIW) but the player was probably listening to the original (maybe in a iPod or something) and just created the MIDI.
I wished I had known about Shift-M. I do not actually remember how I solved the problem but I did, probably with a big hammer.
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brundlefly
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 22:00:28
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CakeAlexS
Well nothing clever is going on with the MIDI clock, all the bog standard defaults.
Drummer was playing my Octapad triggering Addictive Drums, everything is in sync... just this "why is the project tempo set differently in the project" mystery.
I'll check it all out tomorrow... thanks for the advice...
Not MIDI clock, audio clock. There are no mysteries, only failures to understand. 
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Splat
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/12 22:01:51
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Right it was on audio for sure. Sorry I was back in the 90s. Thanks..
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Splat
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/14 11:08:27
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Thanks Dave for this. Your method was exactly what I was looking for thanks! Well the tempo was 88 and he was drumming more like 93. The drummer was as not as exact as I thought and I think the drummer simply ignored the click. Next time the whole band gets it. Live and learn I guess.... nb Normally I hate clicks (as I know people might veer in shock as everybody uses them, but I hate keeping things rigid as often it takes away the organic ...) but this was an experiment as I figured this band needed it. I figure the drummer followed the band more than the band followed the drummer in this instance.
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/03/14 11:21:52
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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bluzdog
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Re: Change project tempo without altering anything.
2014/03/14 14:04:22
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Lynn
One of my all time favorite bands is King Crimson, who've I've been blessed to see live twice in the last 12 years.
Lynn...a little o.t. but are you familiar with http://www.venetowest.com/rcm/ Rocky
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