Helpful ReplyChange project tempo without changing midi clip tempos?

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noonie
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2010/05/10 15:24:49 (permalink)

Change project tempo without changing midi clip tempos?

Hi all,
 
I started a projet with and audio file sent by a freind. Stupid me left the default tempo on the project and went on to record some midi tracks. Basically I recorded midi at 104BPM along with the audio track, but the project tempo itself was set to 120.
 
How can I change the project tempo to 104 and leave the midi data as is?
 
I coulda sworn I read something about it in the manual, but I'll be damned if I can find it again.....
 
Thx!

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dmbaer
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Re:Change project tempo without changing midi clip tempos? 2010/05/10 15:54:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Take a look at Set Measure/Beat at Now command.  From the Sonar doc.:
 
This command does not stretch audio. It works by adjusting tempo so that
measure lines line up with audio transients or MIDI data. If you have audio
tracks that were recorded without a metronome, and you need some
measure lines in your project in order to add MIDI, or to quantize to the
Time Ruler, this command can solve your problem.
 
For the rest, check out what's in the manual.
  
Edit: Mind you, I haven't ever done this, so I'm just speculating it might be what you need.  In particular, I'd be concerned that Sonar will "helpfully" rearrange your existing MIDI data so it ends up in the same place with respect to current measure boundaries ... which of course would defeat the whole purpose.  If so, you can try locking the clip that contains the MIDI data before doing the set command.  I'll be interested in hearing if you have success in this.
post edited by dmbaer - 2010/05/10 16:02:03
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VariousArtist
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Re:Change project tempo without changing midi clip tempos? 2010/05/10 17:07:07 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I think I get your issue and here's a crack at what I think might work for you....

Changing the songs tempo shouldn't affect a "single clip of continuous audio", but it will affect the MIDI notes that you have entered -- hence the reason for your question.

In essence you want to do the following:
1.  Change project tempo
2.  Use "Process->Fit To Time" on the MIDI and set the time to the audio length

Here are some more detailed steps to help you out:
1.  Make sure that your audio starts at zero time
2.  Make sure that you have a MIDI note at zero time (even a dummy one will do)
3.  Make sure that you have a MIDI note that ends at the end-boundary of the audio clip
     (even a dummy one will do)
4.  Optionally make the MIDI a single clip (might help in the following steps)
5.  Write down EXACTLY where the audio file ends (i.e. the SMPTE time)
6.  Change the project tempo as desired (e.g. to 104bpm)
     (at this point your MIDI will be out of whack with the audio)
7.  Select the MIDI clip and the menu option for "Process->Fit To Time"
8.  In the "Fit To Time" dialog box, enter the audio length (from step 5)

And, as we mis-say in England, "Viola!".

I just tested it now and it worked for me.  Let me know how it goes...


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brundlefly
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Re:Change project tempo without changing midi clip tempos? 2010/05/10 18:01:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
dmbaer's on the right track:

1. Set the Now time at 121:00:000.
2. Click Ctrl-M to open the "Measure Beat/Meter" dialog.
3. Enter Measure 105, Beat 1.000, and OK.
4. The initial tempo will change to 104.00, and neither Audio nor MIDI playback will be affected.
post edited by brundlefly - 2010/05/10 18:02:51
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dmbaer
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Re:Change project tempo without changing midi clip tempos? 2010/05/10 18:06:41 (permalink)
brundlefly


dmbaer's on the right track:

1. Set the Now time at 121:00:000.
2. Click Ctrl-M to open the "Measure Beat/Meter" dialog.
3. Enter Measure 105, Beat 1.000, and OK.
4. The initial tempo will change to 104.00, and neither Audio nor MIDI playback will be affected.


Thanks for the confirmation, Dave.  I think the process/fit-to-time is also a viable solution, but is more work to solve this particular problem.
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VariousArtist
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Re:Change project tempo without changing midi clip tempos? 2010/05/10 18:17:21 (permalink)

Yes, dmbaer's suggestion is not only a good alternative, I think it is a better one for this particular problem.  Good job dmbaer!  (and brundlefly for the confirmation)

post edited by VariousArtist - 2010/05/10 18:18:23
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noonie
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Re:Change project tempo without changing midi clip tempos? 2010/05/11 08:44:13 (permalink)
Thanks all, much appreciated!
I'll give this s try tonight.

I originally interpreted the SetNow to almost do what I wanted, but for audio only. Fit to Improv seemed to maybe be what I needed, but the manual was a bit vague.

I had to do the same thing once before in Cubase....IIRC it involved locking midi clips to a realtime time base instead of MBT. That's what I was trying to do yesterday....obviously with no luck, heheheh.

Thanks again!

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brundlefly
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Re:Change project tempo without changing midi clip tempos? 2010/05/11 10:30:32 (permalink)
IIRC it involved locking midi clips to a realtime time base instead of MBT. That's what I was trying to do yesterday....obviously with no luck

 
There was another thread about this yesterday. Page 295 of the 8.0 Reference Guide says that should work as well, but it never has. I wish it would, because otherwise, there's no facility for deleting or changing existing tempo entries, and having MIDI stay put in absolute time.
 
For reference, Set Measure/Beat At Now just aligns the musical time you specify with the absolute time at the Now cursor by altering the mos recent tempo to make that number of measures fit in that amount of time. It will adjust this relationship between musical time and absolute even in a blank project with no audio or MIDI in it.
 
In 8.3.1 and earlier, it also placed an equivalent tempo at that absolute Now time, which would correspond with the new musical time after the preceding tempo was changed. This is so you can then snap another point later on, and the tempo at the most recently "Set" position will be adjusted adjusted, rather than the earlier one that was already adjusted.
 
The 8.5.3 patch broke this model in that it inserts the new tempo at the musical time where the Now cursor was before the tempo change, and this ends up being a different absolute time. This isn;t  big problem if you're going to snap and entire piece to one tempo, but if you want to go back and snap addiitonal points, things can get ugly in 8.5.3.
 
Since your signature indicates you are on 8.3.1 you'll be okay either way. but be aware that the funcitonality will change if you upgrade to 8.5.3.
 
I'm crossing my fingers for an 8.5.4 patch that fixes this.
 
 
 
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noonie
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Re:Change project tempo without changing midi clip tempos? 2010/05/11 14:45:12 (permalink)
Worked like a charm!
Thanks!

Brundle, in this particular case, I'm snapping the entire song, so I'm good. But for additional reference in case I do upgrade.....if  you manually fix that errant tempo change that's inserted, does that solve the problem?

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