Helpful ReplyChanging BPM

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Gerry 1943
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2016/09/06 17:56:41 (permalink)

Changing BPM

I have created a tune with 70 BPM.
However I would like to see what it sounds like at a different BPM. I have tried to change the BPM but as soon as the tune starts it goes back to the original 70 BPM.
I can I do this?
 
Thanks for the info.
 
Gerry
#1
Beepster
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Re: Changing BPM 2016/09/06 18:13:02 (permalink)
Is the project pure MIDI or is there audio clips? This is important.
 
How exactly are you changing the tempo (in the Transport Module, Insert > Tempo/Sig change, Tempo View)?
 
If it's pure MIDI then just changing the Tempo in the Transport module should do it (or if there is audio clips that you've converted to them to GrooveClips and set them up properly so they don't stretch weird).
 
For now I recommend checking out the "Tempo View" in the manual to get a better understanding (and more control) of tempo tweaking in Sonar but there are a ton of different ways to mess with tempo and there are many different considerations when changing tempo and want to include audio clips.
 
Cheers.
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Gerry 1943
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Re: Changing BPM 2016/09/07 11:05:46 (permalink)
I have a mixture of MIDI and AUDIO.
However I do not want to change the tempo mid tune or anything of that nature. All I want is change the tempo of the whole tune at the beginning in the Transport Module to see how it sounds in a faster or slower tempo.
I will consult the manual later today and let the results known.
 
Thank you.
 
Gerry
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brundlefly
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Re: Changing BPM 2016/09/07 12:22:26 (permalink)
If you need to change the tempo of recorded/imported audio tracks, you will need to enable Audiosnap in Autostretch mode on those clips first in addition to deleting the superfluous tempo entries via Views > Tempo as Beepster indicated. They probably got there by copy-pasting with Tempos included.
 
Once you're down to a single initial tempo and have Autostretch enabled on all audio clips, the whole project should change tempo as expected. You'll also want to read up on the use of online/offline stretching algorithms in the SONAR Ref. Guide to get the best possible result.
 
 

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Beepster
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Re: Changing BPM 2016/09/07 12:59:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Greybeard 2016/09/07 22:53:36
Edit: Brundle posted as I was typing my novella. lol
 
Cool. That helps.
 
So on top of looking up the Tempo View here's what I'd do based on the info you provided (and will also give you some other stuff to read up on if you aren't already familiar with features/techniques).
 
First I would say revert back to the version of the project you had right before you started messing with the tempo change. Hopefully you created a Save As version of the project immediately before you tried all this. Go back to that version and start from scratch (I'm concerened your attempts at changing tempo may have insert unwanted tempo changes so we want to start with a completely clean tempo map... essentially using the original project tempo). If you didn't do a Save As and can't get back to a clean project without losing any other data/mix settings/etc then things might get a little weirder.
 
Follow these steps and tell us what happens...
 
1) Enable Snap with Snap Resolution set to Whole Note/Measure (or quarter note or something else largish but we'll be snapping to measure starts).
 
2) Trim/extend all AUDIO clips so their beginnings and endings all land directly on a Measure's 1 beat. So with Snap enabled you can just drag the start and end times of each clip so the snap to the start of a measure on the timeline. You can even just drag the start of each clip to the very start of the project and trim the ends but that is unnecessary. This is done so that the audio clip/start end times don't get all screwed up when Tempo change style stretching occurs.
 
3) Now select all those newly trimmed and snapped clips > Right Click > "Groove-Clip Looping". You can also just press L when the clip(s) are selected and it will do the same thing. This turns your Audio Clips into "Groove Clips" which essentially means they will stretch with any tempo changes in your project. They are now "loops" (and I think more specifically/nerdily they are "Acidized" files).
 
4) Set your Now Time to the beginning of the project (not sure if this is necessary but I would just to rule out some weird stuff I think might happen otherwise and am not going to test today), double click the Tempo display in the Transport Module, enter your new tempo (and press Enter).
 
Expected results....
 
All audio and MIDI should obey the new tempo throughout the song. Keep an eye on the Tempo display in the transport module. If it changes then you have an unwanted Tempo change inserted at that point that needs to be deleted in the Tempo View. It should however (barring any previous tempo change insertions) just play straight through at that tempo.
 
Note: The audio may sound a little garbled depending on how drastic the tempo change/stretching was. Don't worry this is just the "Online" rendering algorithm (only there for auditioning stretches) and there are MANY ways to improve the quality... the main one (and simplest) being "Bouncing/Rendering" the clip to process the stretching more accurately in "Offline" rendering mode.
 
That is another topic and I won't bother going into it unless you want to keep the audio you have now in the final project and simple bouncing is not correcting the audio glitches. However look into using the "Loop Constructor View" for cleaning up Groove Clips/Loops so they stretch better (and a WHOLE pile of other cool stuff) and definitely look up the "Clip Inspector" and the area where you control/set Online/Offline rendering modes for clips.
 
More importantly though is making sure the tempo change works and sticks for now. That would require some description of what's happening in Tempo View so I'll wait until you post back (if you do).
 
To see the Tempo View, in the "Global" Menus (at the top of the main Sonar screen) select "Views" > "Tempo".
 
The Tempo map will load in the Multi Dock (at least it does for me... it might float for you). You'll see a visual (and editable) graph of the tempo(s) throughout the project and on the right side a text list of all the tempo changes (if you don't see this list then it is hidden but it should be there).
 
You are already reading up on Tempo View so you should be able to figure out what's up just by looking at it so I'll leave it at that (my bass is calling to me... again) but post an update or if you need some help.
 
This is a tricky/confusing aspect of Sonar unless you are used to it.
 
Also recently user Brundlefly posted some alternate methods that I have yet to explore. Otherwise that might trim a few steps from my method above.
 
Good luck.
 
I go bass things now.
post edited by Beepster - 2016/09/07 13:21:17
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Beepster
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Re: Changing BPM 2016/09/07 13:08:59 (permalink)
Brundle showed up as I was typing.
 
I forgot to bookmark your method last time for the bulk "Reaper" style stretching. If you have it handy I really do want to play with it a bit.
 
Otherwise I'll just stalk the thread through the googlies.
 
ur SMRT
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Beepster
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Re: Changing BPM 2016/09/07 13:21:14 (permalink)
Aha!
 
Anderton's current Tip of the Week semi relates to this discussion (but not entirely)...
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3476633
 
He mentions the "Follow Project Tempo" option that was eluding me from our previous discussion, Brundlefly. That's what I wanted to experiment with.
 
Cheers!
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brundlefly
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Re: Changing BPM 2016/09/07 13:22:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Beepster 2016/09/07 13:45:18
Here's the procedure for doing this with Audiosnap Autostretch, which I think is preferable to using Groove Clip Looping. Groove Clip Looping does not offer different algorithms for Offline rendering; bounced Groove Clips will always render with the rudimentary 'Groove Clip' stretching algorithm that Audisonsap also uses for real-time, 'Online' rendering. Also, IIRC, Groove Clips have a length limit of 256 beats which may not be sufficient, and SONAR tends to 'mis-guess' the number of beats in each clip, which can cause problems if not corrected.
 
Using Audiosnap avoids all of this:
 
- Ctrl+A to Select All (MIDI doesn't need to be included, but it doesn't hurt to select everything).
- Open the Clip tab of the Track Inspector, and expand the Audiosnap section.
- Click to check the 'Enable' box, and give it a moment to finish processing all the tracks.
- Ctrl+A again, and check the box for 'Follow Project Tempo'.
- Change the tempo.

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Beepster
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Re: Changing BPM 2016/09/07 13:25:48 (permalink)
Noice!
 
/bookmarked
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Gerry 1943
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Re: Changing BPM 2016/09/07 17:22:52 (permalink)
Thank you everyone for your insight.
Problem solved.
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