Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add

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Roflcopter
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2008/05/18 07:02:41 (permalink)

Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add

I'll be picking up either the Alesis One MkII's or the B-brand Truths later this week, but I've already understood you probably want a subwoofer, even with a 6,5".

They're cheapo, but decent.

So any there for a ditto cheapo (but decent) subwoofer? Or should that be subwoofers?

Is that dependent on room size or more of your type of music? And finally, is there anything I should keep in mind with a subwoofer during mixdown as to EQ'ing?

[and get my room treated, iknowiknow - first things first]

Thanks in advance for any tips here.

I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
#1

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/18 08:54:45 (permalink)
    I have a JBL LSR6312SP... I hardly ever use it.

    There's usually already enough bass in the rooms I work in.

    If I did more work with synthesized bass sound... meaning sound that really does go down to the 20-30Hz range... I would probably use my sub more often.

    You definitely want to coordinate integrating a sub with treating the room.


    best regards,
    mike
    #2
    Roflcopter
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/18 09:11:52 (permalink)
    I have a JBL LSR6312SP... I hardly ever use it.


    That's a shame for a $1500 sub. Bit pricey too for my tastes. Was thinking sub $500 more, although I know the JBL isn't even the most expensive.

    More like the M-Audio M-10S:

    http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?item=IKEY%2DM10S&off=1&sort=prod&skuonly=0&search=IKEY%2DM10S&pagesize=20

    also weighs ten kg's less than the JBL, I'll probably pour some concrete in it

    I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
    #3
    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/18 10:17:16 (permalink)
    Yes,

    I consider JBL working man quality... It's not in the hi end leaque.

    Here's in the US you can get a great subwoofer kit from Parts Express. I think it's called the Titanic and they have a few pre packaged options for price point choices.

    For $500- I think it's a potential best value.

    I would think that there may be some Euro brands that are very good values for your circumstances.

    Do you remember when Dynaudio was a small little quirky company? I'd just expect that there is some regional up and comer that we haven't heard of over in the States. Worth checking out maybe?

    best,
    mike
    #4
    Roflcopter
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/18 10:52:18 (permalink)
    Thank for the tip, been finding some local hints here for DIY projects ranging between 150 and 300 euros depending on passive/active. There's even a home cheapo active one for only 120-30 euros that apparently knocks the socks off everyone, esp. for the money, the Mivoc sw 1100. Never heard of it, but it gets independent rave reviews from both movie lovers and music aficionados. Maybe I should check out the rest of their line.

    [edit incorrect info in the Mivoc driver size - was probably a different one, this one is 10"]
    post edited by Roflcopter - 2008/05/18 12:34:16

    I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
    #5
    Owen
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    bitflipper
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/18 12:20:59 (permalink)
    I couldn't justify $2K on a sub that I wasn't sure I really needed in the first place, so I took a chance on a cheap sub.

    My Sweetwater guy told me it was a mistake and tried to steer me to some Tannoys, which he was a big fan of and cost less than the ADAM that would have matched my monitors. I did not follow his advice, figuring that if a cheap sub didn't work out then I'd just drag it down to the rec room and put it on the TV for explosion-enhancement.

    Luckily, the unit I chose worked out quite well and I'm glad I only paid $400 for it: M-Audio BX10A. A great value. Thanks to Dean Roddey for suggesting it to me.
    post edited by bitflipper - 2008/05/18 12:43:56


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    Roflcopter
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/18 12:47:20 (permalink)
    M-Audio BX10A


    Thanks, I'm already in your debt for warning against those other Alesis monitors in another thread - hence the Alesis One MkII's or the Behringer Truths - even though the Behringers are not the cheaper of the two.

    The M-Audio looks pretty decent, and it's good to hear it's OK, I trust both your ears, and independent judgment.

    Still funny that a decent sub will set me back a 100 euros or so more than a pair of entry monitors themselves. But reading that DIY thread exposed some big diffs in design choices there, and how finetuned everything has to be if you want good results. Driver size, cabin volume to match, driver direction (front/bottom) - quite a list.

    [edit]

    found a link to it on that same site:

    http://www.samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?ItemID=58314
    post edited by Roflcopter - 2008/05/18 13:14:35

    I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
    #8
    bitflipper
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/18 16:04:16 (permalink)
    Yeh, designing a speaker that'll go low isn't hard or expensive.

    I worked with a bass player who made his own cab based on standard calculations. It had great low end. Unfortunately, it wouldn't fit through the van doors! (We made that unfortunate discovery while loading up for a gig.)

    The real trick is making a compact enclosure that'll be flat through that narrow range of frequencies and won't rattle or buzz. That requires high-quality materials and construction that isn't so cheap. That's why I was surprised that the cheapest 10" sub in the catalog turned out to be as good as it is.







    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #9
    Roflcopter
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/18 16:35:16 (permalink)
    Ew, possible change of plan here - what's your verdict on the Fostex PM-1's? Can pick up a set for less than 300, I see. Dunno about these, but IIRC Fostex had a good name.

    I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
    #10
    RobertB
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/18 19:51:49 (permalink)
    Rob,
    I'm not sure which other Alesis monitors you were warned away from. Are you looking at the passive Monitor One Mk2's? If so, matched with a properly sized power amp, they may have enough low end, without a subwoofer.
    Before I got mine, I was mixing with my old Pioneer HPM-100's(I know, the evils of home stereo). These have a very strong low end, and as a result, I was overcompensating, and ending up with really thin mixes.
    With the Passive M1 Mk2's, just by themselves, my mixes seem to translate well to other systems (at least the ones I have been able to hear).
    I don't want to detract from what anybody else has said, and I certainly value their thoughts, but you may find that sub isn't really necessary.

    My Soundclick Page
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    Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
    #11
    mgh
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/18 22:29:33 (permalink)
    would not buying a coupla 8" speakered monitors be roughly the same price and no compatability issues? such as the KRK or Event ALP?

    Memorare debut album 'Philistine' available now http://blackwoodproductio...philistine-digipack-cd
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    joshhunsaker
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/19 02:42:46 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Roflcopter

    I have a JBL LSR6312SP... I hardly ever use it.


    also weighs ten kg's less than the JBL, I'll probably pour some concrete in it


    hey! that's not a bad idea for lowering the resonant freq. of the cabinet...

    might have to try this...I've been looking into building a sub out of marble or granite anyway.
    #13
    joshhunsaker
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/19 02:46:58 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: bitflipper
    The real trick is making a compact enclosure that'll be flat through that narrow range of frequencies and won't rattle or buzz. That requires high-quality materials and construction that isn't so cheap. That's why I was surprised that the cheapest 10" sub in the catalog turned out to be as good as it is.


    sealed designs tend to make this aspect a little more foolproof though. I will never understand why so many speakers are even ported - less dampening, no vacuum to prevent cone over-excursion, port noise if it's designed badly (viz. not flared greatly), increased distortion, more ambient amp noise, more design problems and complexities, etc. etc. Just seems dumb.
    #14
    droddey
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/19 03:28:43 (permalink)
    Too bad you are way over yonder. I'm selling an M-Audio BX10s and a nice little crossover box, which together are under your cost limit.

    Dean Roddey
    Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
    www.charmedquark.com
    #15
    Roflcopter
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/19 03:37:30 (permalink)
    Too bad you are way over yonder. I'm selling an M-Audio BX10s and a nice little crossover box, which together are under your cost limit.


    Yeah, that's a shame. Think the cost of sending it + insuring it could be prohibitive, like they know all about in places like Oz. I will check that out, tho.

    Also seriously looking into building one of my own. If a big driver, matching cabinet + sealing is basically what it's all about, I think I can do that.

    @RobertB

    Bitflipper gave a negative review of the Alesis M1 520 active ones, in fact he said the One MkII's are the only decent ones they make, and I believe him. Alesis has dropped the ball repeatedly, I read.

    I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
    #16
    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/19 08:49:47 (permalink)
    Josh,
    I you want to make a high density cabinet... use concrete. It's much easier to work with.

    But, If you do not understand why so many small cabinets are ported you probably are NOT ready to make your own speakers. FWIW I did notice that you are knowledgable about some of the problems bad porting can create... Maybe you DO know about Thiele Small and just have another opinion?

    In any case, everyone in the sound production field should learn about Theile - Small Parameters... it's been the first step to designing good speaker systems since the early seventies... you get 30+ years of research and knowledge to help you choose the correct port dimensions.

    A properly designed sealed cabinet that is relatively flat and that does go deep into the bass range will almost always be a VERY big box.

    Don't get me wrong... I like the big boxes... but they've been out of fashion since the late seventies.

    very best regards,
    mike
    #17
    Roflcopter
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/19 10:55:57 (permalink)
    OK, just picked up the Fostexes, and I read they have a matching sub for about what these cost me. Think I'll do that. The PM-1's sound smashing, BTW - much better deal than the Alesis or the Behringers, I think.

    So it's time for me to break out a few CD's, give my ears a bit of training on them, and remix just about everything I've done so far, judging from a quick listen to 1 that I thought was the best mix of the lot [....NOT!].


    I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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    joshhunsaker
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/19 13:31:20 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: mike_mccue

    Josh,
    I you want to make a high density cabinet... use concrete. It's much easier to work with.

    But, If you do not understand why so many small cabinets are ported you probably are NOT ready to make your own speakers. FWIW I did notice that you are knowledgable about some of the problems bad porting can create... Maybe you DO know about Thiele Small and just have another opinion?

    In any case, everyone in the sound production field should learn about Theile - Small Parameters... it's been the first step to designing good speaker systems since the early seventies... you get 30+ years of research and knowledge to help you choose the correct port dimensions.

    A properly designed sealed cabinet that is relatively flat and that does go deep into the bass range will almost always be a VERY big box.

    Don't get me wrong... I like the big boxes... but they've been out of fashion since the late seventies.

    very best regards,
    mike

    No...i totally understand how those parameters are used all the time for designing "tuned ports" and such. But the idea is just a little fallacious when used for porting and here are a few reasons why.

    1. the reverse phase of the cone shoots waves into an enclosed area when they then become distorted, phase changed, colored, and all other types of malformed whereupon they are subsequently redirected back out into a "waveguide" which puts normally throws those waves back out aimed at a wall behind the speaker (or the floor, or least detrimentally the front) whereupon the effect of coloration and excitation of surrounding resonant materials is redoubled...(imagine putting your ear by just the port and only listening to what is being projected by it and you can't hear any of the direct radiation - will it sound good? No. Because it is basically the same thing as listening through a tunnel...)

    2. the port is normally "tuned" so as to create a huge frequency response drop after a tiny bandwidth of assistance area provided by the port and box itself. Sharp slopes in frequency response make for a less life-like sound.

    3. ports prevent the cabinet from being as stable as it otherwise could be made in an ideal design (i.e. totally spherical) but it seems not really anyone cares about that anyway (when people will stop making 'boxes' out of mdf I never will know)

    4. they act in a way similar to a dipole by pulling air on it's outward excursion and hence will increase the 'sense' of depth in a recording but at the expense of pinpoint accuracy

    5. if designed badly (without a massive flange) - they can create large amounts of extra noise

    to say the least - I have a few problems with these typical speaker developments like ports (yes, all of them - even basic acoustic concepts would advocate them detrimental in a purist sense for really every application except very high spl levels), mdf, foam surrounds, tiny magnets, PMPO ratings, ideas that rf frequency problems like the skin effect and velocity of propagation have anything to do with audio transmissions and other such ideas...
    post edited by joshhunsaker - 2008/05/19 14:00:39
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/19 14:01:23 (permalink)
    WOW,

    For a person who seems to be somewhat knowledgable about speaker design and totally understands Thiele - Small theory and implementation... you seem unimpressed with the fact that the average speaker of today sounds far better than most of the average speakers I grew up with in the early to mid seventies.

    I would think categorizing cheap mass produced inconsistent junk for what it is would be more realistic and satisfying than considering that the porting is the cause of the state of affairs.

    I'm left to scratch my head.

    best regards,
    mike
    post edited by mike_mccue - 2008/05/19 15:30:12
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    joshhunsaker
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/20 03:05:19 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: mike_mccue

    WOW,

    For a person who seems to be somewhat knowledgable about speaker design and totally understands Thiele - Small theory and implementation... you seem unimpressed with the fact that the average speaker of today sounds far better than most of the average speakers I grew up with in the early to mid seventies.

    I would think categorizing cheap mass produced inconsistent junk for what it is would be more realistic and satisfying than considering that the porting is the cause of the state of affairs.

    I'm left to scratch my head.

    best regards,
    mike

    no - I am not saying porting is going to ruin a speaker... that's not it - some of the greatest speakers in the world (currently) are ported - they just could be a little better were they not. I just deal with so many bass-heads (I work at an electronics store) that think porting is the answer to all their problems that I get a little put off about it I suppose. I hope I didn't come off as too brash.

    to tell the truth - I've got a pair of down-ported 10" subs (stereo arrangement) that I use for my theatre and they sound surprisingly good. I mean - I have the cutoff set at the lowest point possible - but even then I am still amazed at how crisp the "bass transients" are managed. I just have done enough mods to know that they could be made to sound a helluva lot better in a sealed box. Call me spoiled. I rather think I am I guess...

    i remember one experiment I did with a set of computer speakers that had a small sub with a 4" driver. It was ported - so I took a pillow and stuffed the entire thing into that little box - I mean I literally crammed the heck out of it so I could fit no more in there and then sealed the port off with a piece of wood. I played some pieces and honestly - it was like a brand new speaker - I had never heard bass that "tight" and gripping from any system I had ever listened to (I've heard/had some nice systems). Now it wasn't going to shake the room or rattle bones/break windows or anything - but it was sure crisp and accurate/felt real(most important part for me - how much it makes me feel like I'm there...). Just a simple mod, really. Went a long long way. I just don't know what a lot of the R&D departments for these speaker manufactures are doing...

    and erm...I guess you were being sarcastic about the Theile-small bit because I really know nothing except the utter basics about the concepts behind it, soo, yeah.
    post edited by joshhunsaker - 2008/05/20 03:40:11
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/20 08:22:45 (permalink)
    Josh,
    Perhaps the most important thing to consider about Thiele - Small:

    It's not just a theory about porting... in fact the first step is to predict the ideal volume of the cabinet without a port.

    If you decide that a *full size* enclosure is unsuitable you can use Thiele Small parameters to predict the proper port design for a smaller enclosure size.

    best regards,
    mike


    #22
    losguy
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/22 00:39:34 (permalink)
    Are you guys familiar with the ELF (Extended Low Frequency) design? It uses a small sealed box, along with an electronic pre-processor to correct for the cabinet rolloff. It portends to give the transient response fidelity of the sealed cab, while also being flat. (This, at the expense of efficiency.) So, it requires a big driver amp and a driver with a large Xmax. Some links:

    http://www.bagend.com/ > Tech Library > Tech Notes > About INFRA

    http://sound.westhost.com/project48.htm

    http://www.halfgaar.net/elf-subwoofer

    I'm working on a scaled-down version of this as a side project. The electronic compensator will be done with a digital EQ processor (B-brand DCX2496).

    Psalm 30:12
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    #23
    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/22 06:53:28 (permalink)
    So what's that mean, automatic 3ms latency for the DSP I/O?

    #24
    losguy
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    RE: Cheap Monitors - which subwoofer to add 2008/05/22 10:29:11 (permalink)
    It's a digital crossover. The latency is just the converter latency... I'll have to check, but at 96k I doubt it's anywhere near that high.

    If you use the AES-EBU input then it's probably even less.

    Psalm 30:12
    All pure waves converge at the Origin
    #25
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