Treefight
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Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
I hope there is a quick answer! I'm doing a new studio build, lots of hardware, plus PC, displays, amps, all manner of electrical devices. Question: to avoid or minimize unwanted noise/hums, as a general rule, is it better to have EVERYTHING on/in ONE circuit, or is there a better way? If it's not the way to go, is there a short answer as to which "group" or "groupings" of "devices" (e.g., rack gear or amplifiers) should be on a one circuit, while another "group" (e.g., PC/display/MIDI controller) should be on a different circuit? I only put it in these terms because on Marshall's site they advise that everything that is "connected" should be powered from a single circuit - does that logic extend to everything in the studio, if possible? I know there are a million variables, so I don't need those listed, but for a starting point I need to decide whether I need to have the whole studio hooked into one circuit (or more than one). Right now the studio's outlets/plugs go to unknown circuits shared with my residence upstairs. It's a small additional cost to add an additional circuit strictly for the basement/studio. For purposes of my question, let's assume I don't need more than one circuit, power-wise. After a bad experience, I'm on a hum/noise-killing spree. Should I do it? Will it help mitigate at least some of the myriad sources of potential noise? Thanks in advance!
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/08 19:12:14
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I have put in a totally separate power supply which nothing in the entire building except studio gear is connected to (and added a second for lights and whatever I might have to connect which should not affect studio gear)
So yes my experience was that having all studio gear on the same line works brilliantly. I used to have grounding issues with some USB devices before ... but since the single power supply (with nothing else on it - I believe that's what makes the diffetence) everything is fine ...
plus it also allows to hook the entire studio quickly into UPS if power supply gets flaky (thunderstorm season)
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Treefight
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/08 20:52:53
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Thank you! That's the best news I've heard all day...
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fireberd
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/08 21:06:14
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☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/07/09 16:07:46
One potential issue. Even with one AC power line for everything a "ground loop" hum problem can appear. I've seen this many times. Fixes for ground loop hum problems include lifting the AC power ground on one device, using a device such as the Ebtech hum eliminator; or if its because of two units both mounted to the same rack rails, isolating the device causing it from the rack rails (commercial "hum frees" are sold for this purpose). Sorry to hijack the thread but thought this needed brought up. If you are going to run a special AC power line for recording, consider a 20 amp circuit and an "isolated ground" line with a Hubbel 5262 (orange) receptacle. With an isolated ground circuit the ground wire is connected directly to the ground bus in the AC power panel and directly to the AC power receptacle, not to a conduit ground or just grounded to the outlet box. Thus the "isolated" ground. When I worked as a LAN/WAN Network Manager, all our computer equipment (including servers, printers, workstations, etc) was connected to isolated ground circuits, which minimized noise on the AC power line. I don't know how much that would add to the cost of a "standard" AC circuit but ultimately may be worth it.
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Treefight
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/09 11:10:47
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Thank you - you anticipated my next concern! It's very helpful to know that ground loop hums are still a possibility because it gives me the starting point for troubleshooting... that I won't need. 🎸
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Treefight
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/09 11:11:04
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hbarton
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/09 14:31:34
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Not to get too technical, but ground loop hum is caused by a difference in potential of grounding points in circuits. Ideally, all grounds should be at the same potential, otherwise, you will have current flow between them (and hum). The easiest (and usually cheapest) way to eliminate the possibility of loops is to set up a ground bus that is as close as possible to AC source and then run equipment chassis grounds back to that bus. If possible, I would have a separate circuit for amps and another for any air conditioners or microwave ovens. A separate circuit would be a separate breaker supplying a set of outlets (not a extension cord plugged into the wall someplace). Since you are doing a build, you might want to test things as you go (connect your mixer, listen for noise, connect some preamps, listen again, etc.) rather than connecting everything and then try to figure out what is causing the noise. hope that helps! h
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glennstanton
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/09 16:12:23
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/09 16:33:35
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BTW I should have mentioned that I also use a power conditioner, but that may be just a placebo ... but I got it and I use ... it should also do some extra surge protection (yet, this conditioner thing didn't fix my problems before I redid the entire power line setup) hbarton If possible, I would have a separate circuit for amps and another for any air conditioners or microwave ovens.
As said above I think that's key ... I actually tapped into the 380V power supply (I'm in Europe so things work different here) that enters the building and had 3 separate 220V lines installed from that which are separately secured with circuit breakers, etc. hbarton Since you are doing a build, you might want to test things as you go (connect your mixer, listen for noise, connect some preamps, listen again, etc.) rather than connecting everything and then try to figure out what is causing the noise.
Yes, it would make sense to add gear stepwise and listen (especially if you have some equipment with hum problems identified)
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wst3
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/09 19:05:50
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☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/07/10 16:44:31
I'm not really picking on your Fireberd, your post was good, but I'm afraid you offered some dangerous advice. fireberd One potential issue. Even with one AC power line for everything a "ground loop" hum problem can appear. I've seen this many times. This is true - ground noise comes from many places. and even a properly designed technical power system can still have ground loops. However, ground loops aren't really the problem, it is current flowing in the ground loops that is the problem, and more to the point, poorly designed equipment that allows the ground loop current to interfere with the audio. fireberdFixes for ground loop hum problems include lifting the AC power ground on one device, using a device such as the Ebtech hum eliminator; or if its because of two units both mounted to the same rack rails, isolating the device causing it from the rack rails (commercial "hum frees" are sold for this purpose).
Not true! You should NEVER lift the SAFETY ground! This is an old wives tale that, sadly can reduce noise problems, but it can also create a lethal power problem where you become the low impedance path between an energized conductor and ground. NEVER life the SAFETY ground - it is called that for a reason. So how do you build a noise free audio system? Turns out we've know for a very long time, we just forget every now and again. #1 - clean power! You don't have complete control over the power that enters the building, but there are numerous ways to clean it up once it gets there. Probably the most cost effective solution (in most situations) is called a separately derived panel, fed from an isolation transformer. If that sounds like greek then I'd strongly suggest hiring a qualified electrician to install one. #2 - properly designed balanced gozintas and gozoutas - if you have these then no ground current can affect your audio. It's really that simple. Any properly designed balanced input (active or transformer) will have sufficient ability to reject common mode noise. #3 - twisted pairs - shields do nothing for power line noise,they are effective against radio frequencies, but at 60 Hz they are invisible. #4 - proper termination of grounds - this gets tricky because (a) if everything else is good it becomes less of an issue, and (b) there are two perfectly acceptable solutions - "star ground" and "mesh ground" - and neither is particularly easy to implement. Good thing it isn't critical. If it were me, and I were the curious type (which I am) I'd read Philip Giddings " Audio Systems Design and Installation" it is still considered the gold standard. It was out of print for a long time, and used copies used to command very high prices. PostToronto has recently reprinted it at a very reasonable cost of about $70 CDN. After reading that I'd find everything I can on the topic of "The Pin-1 Problem". The late Neil Muncy first published his paper on this in 1996 and it was a real eye opener. Be prepared to diagnose and solve problems with existing gear. I'd also check out most of the Rane Notes. There is a wealth of information there. It is neither difficult nor expensive to build an electrically quiet system. If you can find your way around Sonar you can do this. Do you want this becomes the problem, and if you don't there are plenty of folks that can. I'd strongly suggest finding a local resource, I've tried helping people build studios remotely and it can become a wee bit frustrating for all concerned.
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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fireberd
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/09 19:58:15
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The ground lift is not something I really suggest or do, but I mentioned it. Usually, as long as the device its attached to is properly grounded the attached device will be too. Obviously the best option is to only buy devices that properly ground, but who knows. My biggest audio challenge was shielding (RF Shielding) a studio in Kansas City, Mo (Big K Records) that was 1 block from an AM radio station transmitter site. I could never get 100% out but got it out of the board and recording equipment (all analog tape at the time). I couldn't get it 100% out of the headphone distribution system but it was low enough it didn't interfere with sound levels. BTW, ex W5DVO, K3FFZ, ZD8JES
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/09 20:16:46
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☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/07/10 16:45:30
fireberd Usually, as long as the device its attached to is properly grounded the attached device will be too.
Still not good advice. Lifting the earth connection on any equipment is just downright dangerous. You cannot rely on the audio earth connection between an earthed and non earthed equipment either to provide a solid ground. It might be quiet but in the event of the live mains wire coming into contact with the metal chassis of one of the items concerned then the audio earth may not be enough to save you. A much better and safer way is to leave all items grounded, and if a ground loop appears then solve it by lifting the earth connections in some of the audio connections, not the power. Using balanced audio connections wherever possible is a great start. (especially between your active monitors and what is feeding them e.g. interface monitor outs.) A lot of stuff has balanced connections these days and many don't know it and are using unbalanced leads to connect stuff. Not only do you get great noise rejection with balanced connections but a 6 dB volume boost too for free. Many synths have balanced outputs and many line inputs on mixers are also balanced as well. Use em! Sometimes when you connect things like iPads or laptop outputs you can pick up hum, noise or other sounds. There are also ways to connect non balanced outputs into balanced inputs. e.g. by wiring into the balanced input using the balanced connections only and not the balanced inputs earth. This can also solve many hum and noise problems too. Plugging your entire studio into a single power circuit is also a good thing to do. It puts all the earths in the system at the same potential and will minimise ground loops. Your entire studio will not draw enough power to trip the breaker either.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Treefight
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/09 20:32:50
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Ha! It worked. I didn't want to just come out and ask for detailed advice for my particular situation (as well as being helpful for others, I'm sure). I like the idea of hiring someone local, though I'm hoping an excellent electrician will be able to do what's necessary (in fact, I'll determine if he/she is excellent by their reaction to my instructions/questions). I learned the test-as-you-go lesson the hard way. Several times. What's the definition of insanity again... Great stuff, thank you. I'm excited to be able to at least try to address this from the, ahem, ground up.
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fireberd
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/10 10:04:32
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I won't get into a pi..ing match with you but if there is a ground connection (maintained) between the two devices it is grounded. It is not the best option but has worked for ages for musicians.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/10 11:03:42
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I am referring to high voltage mains situations of course here. I witnessed a situation where the active mains wire came into contact with the chassis of the unearthed device that was supposed to be earthed via the audio connection (to another grounded device) The mains earth was removed from one of the devices to prevent a ground loop via a double adapter with its ground pin removed. The audio connection between them was completely destroyed in a microsecond and the chassis of the unearthed device became lethal and nearly killed someone who touched it. (240 volts remember here!) So no, to rely on the audio connection to ground a device safely is a myth. Some earth ground audio connections might only be relying on a minute amount of contact to ground via the plug/socket where a properly grounded chassis with a wire terminated to a tag bolted to the chassis is much better. Some switchboard circuit breakers will trip though in a microsecond and save you but you cannot always rely on that either. Do no unearth your mains devices. It is simply dangerous. It is possible to leave both devices grounded and lift the earth connection of the audio cable at one end between them instead. (As long as one end is still grounded, the shield of the cable will still do its job) Same result but much safer. Harder to do though, requires making a special lead. Lifting mains earths is much easier. Of course if the power supply is low voltage DC for both devices then yes, less danger. Or the devices are double insulated. Different for 240 volts though. Although I have have heard of situations where the mains input to a DC power supply also found its way into a low voltage DC device too and that was not pretty either.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2017/07/10 22:53:22
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wst3
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/11 11:59:19
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☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/07/13 18:53:28
Afraid I can't agree completely, but your first point is spot on. Jeff Evans
fireberd Usually, as long as the device its attached to is properly grounded the attached device will be too.
Still not good advice. Lifting the earth connection on any equipment is just downright dangerous. You cannot rely on the audio earth connection between an earthed and non earthed equipment either to provide a solid ground. Here's the thing, and neither Jeff nor I seem to be saying it well. It is NEVER good advice to suggest bypassing a safety ground. If two pieces of gear are connected, via shield, when only one is connected to earth ground then it is true that both are grounded. But you are now depending on that shield to carry a lethal current to ground, and more than likely it will fail and you will carry that current to ground. It seems that everyone who understands grounding and shielding assumes everyone else does too. That's why I will often jump in when posts suggest defeating safety ground. To someone that is more musician than electrical engineer that might sound great. But they don't understand the safety implications. That's why I get so insistent on the subject. I'm not trying to start - or sustain - a pi$$ing contest! Part of the confusion stems from our mis-use of the terms ground and common. Ground is considered this mystical point where no amount of current flowing in or out can change the potential - but wait, that definition is missing a word - "difference". A potential difference can not exist at a single point, so we need to know with respect to what (or where.) All of which is digging deeper than necessary. Always connect safety grounds and you don't have to think about it. Jeff EvansA much better and safer way is to leave all items grounded, and if a ground loop appears then solve it by lifting the earth connections in some of the audio connections, not the power. Also true, although I'd go one step further, consider "Aggressor" and "Victim" and treat accordingly. Embarrassing tale I've told too many times to care any more - back in the bad old days I had this lovely Tangent console that I was rebuilding. For grins I decided to try the "huge copper bar" approach that I knew some of my heroes were using to quiet their consoles. It was expensive, tedious, time consuming, and dang, it worked. It worked really well! Turns out we were all fixing the right problem with the wrong solution! As part of the huge copper bar solution we were terminating the shields outside the chassis. Yes, I felt kind of dumb. And yes, I was able to re-sell that copper bar, for a tad more than I paid for it, but I'll never get the hours spent drilling and threading! Jeff EvansUsing balanced audio connections wherever possible is a great start. And herein lies maybe the biggest source of confusion. Every source can be treated as balanced. And all you need to connect a balanced source to a balanced input is two wires, although it helps tremendously if they are twisted. That leaves the input as the potential (excuse the pun) problem. If it is a single ended input you will need to do something to make it differential - you can add a transformer (ideal, but expensive) or you can add an active device. That's it! Meaning there really is no reason not to use balanced interconnections everywhere. Jeff EvansNot only do you get great noise rejection with balanced connections but a 6 dB volume boost too for free. Part 2 of the great audio myth - a balanced connection is not dependent on signal symmetry, nor does it require that both input pins be driven at all. The ONLY requirement for a balanced connection is that both input pins see a equal impedance to ground. That's the definition of a balanced input. And that means that the only requirement for the source is that it presents an equal impedance to ground on both legs. Jeff EvansThere are also ways to connect non balanced outputs into balanced inputs. e.g. by wiring into the balanced input using the balanced connections only and not the balanced inputs earth. This can also solve many hum and noise problems too. I think you are saying that correctly, but without a picture it could be confusing. I usually suggest folks read several Rane Notes to see the pretty pictures. Here are my go-to references: Sound System InterconnectionsGrounding and ShieldingWhy Not WyePin 1 Revisited(these next two get a little deep, but are still worth skimming) Shield Current Induced Noise Considerations in Grounding and Shielding Computer-Controlled Audio Devices Jeff EvansPlugging your entire studio into a single power circuit is also a good thing to do. It puts all the earths in the system at the same potential and will minimise ground loops. Your entire studio will not draw enough power to trip the breaker either. This is great for really small systems, but it can cause as many problems as it causes, especially since most folks will stop there, assuming this is the cure-all. All of this goes back to my previous assertion about safety - those of us with experience and education need to do a better job separating fact from fiction. We need to stop assuming everyone understands this stuff as well as we do. That's no different than assuming everyone has studied harmony, counterpoint, and orchestration when discussing sample libraries! So we need to choose our words carefully, and sometimes we need to type a lot. And now our regularly scheduled aside: fireberdMy biggest audio challenge was shielding (RF Shielding) a studio in Kansas City, Mo (Big K Records) that was 1 block from an AM radio station transmitter site. Wow does that bring back bad memories - in a good way! My biggest challenge was a combo (AM/FM) co-located with the AM transmitter. I was still a wee lad (might have still been in college) and in completely over my head! I had two things going for me: 1) the previous engineer was a genius, and the AM control room was quiet, so I studied what he did, and adopted a telescoped shields solution that copied his approach. And it worked! 2) while a radio station needs to be quiet, it doesn't need to be recording studio quiet, so my goals were somewhat less demanding. You had your hands full! fireberdBTW, ex W5DVO, K3FFZ, ZD8JES Why "ex"
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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mudgel
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/11 12:27:44
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Thanks Bill. Nicely put for us lay people. Well at least me.
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fireberd
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/11 12:29:06
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I agree the ground lift is not a permanent solution, but is useful in troubleshooting. Just as isolating from the rack rails is not a real permanent solution but also good during troubleshooting. Bill, the "ex" is because of my laziness and mistake. I moved and thought I had a year to get the licenses (I also had a 2nd class FCC Radiotelephone) renewed when in actuality when I got around to it, it was over the 1 year grace period. I would have had to retake the tests and I didn't have any ham equipment and was not working where the FCC license was needed.
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wst3
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/11 16:44:14
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fireberd I agree the ground lift is not a permanent solution, but is useful in troubleshooting. Just as isolating from the rack rails is not a real permanent solution but also good during troubleshooting. I'll go so far as to agree that if you have a strong background both of these can be used as troubleshooting tricks. Isolating from racks can even be a more permanent solution. Several of my racks (which are gorgeous, custom made by a cabinet maker buddy) are all wood - it's a pain to drill the rails, and if I ever revise the studio I'll likely get rid of the wood rails and just stick Middle Atlantic Rack Rails in there! Anyway, the point I want to make (maybe Jeff too, can't speak for him) is that if someone knowledgeable talks about defeating safety ground someone with less knowledge may stop reading right there. It is safer to just not talk about it. My two cents. fireberdBill, the "ex" is because of my laziness and mistake. I moved and thought I had a year to get the licenses (I also had a 2nd class FCC Radiotelephone) renewed when in actuality when I got around to it, it was over the 1 year grace period. I would have had to retake the tests and I didn't have any ham equipment and was not working where the FCC license was needed. Thought that might be the case. I'm in the same boat on the 2nd radiotelephone - I wasn't paying attention, wasn't working in broadcast at the time, and it lapsed, and I'm too lazy or too dumb to survive the test a second time. The ham license keeps me amused, and I still don't work in broadcasting!
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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fireberd
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/11 17:17:03
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I used the 2nd Class Radiotelphone when I worked for a Motorola 2-way radio dealer (like in police, fire vehicles, etc). The 2nd class was required. Capital Radio Communications in Lemoyne, Pa (Harrisburg suburb).
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/11 20:01:49
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Great post Bill well explained, thank you. I think for troubleshooting purposes sometimes lifting a ground temporarily can be of help as long as its very temporary only. Another thing Firebird mentioned was the Humfrees for isolating rack gear and these are great. I had a reverb unit that always had a very minor hum issue, not bad but annoying. Isolating off the rack solved it very nicely. I only needed to do this for one piece of rack gear. If you suspect something like this try pulling it out and see. Another thing that can cause trouble too is where some of those in line power supplies can be placed. I had another effects unit in my rack that had a slight hum in the audio as well. I spent years on and off trying to track this one down and one day I accidentally kicked a power supply on the ground behind the rack and it turned 90 degrees and the hum went away! I could not believe it. I just never thought. Obviously a hum induction issue but once I relocated a few of them into a far away corner somewhere quite a few hum issues went away after that. (even if it means extending their DC cords a little) Be aware of those things, they can radiate quite badly and fool you. Be prepared to turn them at different angles etc.. A lot of our gear has them now which can be a bit annoying from this point of view. With care you can have total silence, hum and noise wise in your studio.
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wst3
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Re: Circuits/grounding/noise/hum
2017/07/13 03:57:49
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fireberd I used the 2nd Class Radiotelphone when I worked for a Motorola 2-way radio dealer (like in police, fire vehicles, etc). The 2nd class was required. Capital Radio Communications in Lemoyne, Pa (Harrisburg suburb).
Lemoyne? Small world, I used to live in Womelsdorf, and dealt with Capital Radio when I worked at Met-Ed. Never worked on commercial two-way gear much, but did have a bit of test equipment envy when I visited our local two-way shop. Pretty cool stuff! I can't remember their name, but they were great. I had a deal with them where they would monitor the college FM station where I worked for center frequency and modulation a couple times a month as a backup for our modulation monitors. The rules were somewhat relaxed for low power stations at the time, but it seemed like a good way to spot problems. I think they charged me $15/month for the service. Ah the good old days<G>!
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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