DumbGuy56
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Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
This is something new to me. I have been using my DAW for about 7 years or more. I have it optimized for audio according to all the online instructions. It has been working fine for a long time until about 6 months ago or so. I do not usually do a lot of recording using mics; however, about 6 months ago I was recording and, every so often, there would be a click on the recorded track.when I rerecorded the track, the clicks would be somewhere else. Looking at the wave file, you can see the clicks as lines that max out on the track. these clicks were space apart maybe every 20 seconds or longer. I made due and put the mics away,. About a month ago, I tried again, this time the clicks were a little closer together. I gave up on that track. Two nights ago, I again gave it a try - and now the clicks are like popcorn. To save a lot of guesswork about mics, wires, etc. let me explain what is going on with nothing open and no mics attached. I am using RME-Audi Multiface II as a sound device. IT has a software mixer that opens with the computer. When I start the computer, and I open the mixer - before ANYTHIN else is open, and without being connected to a network, I watch the input tracks of the mixer and they are ALL "popping." this includes tracks 1-8, which is the input tracks from the Multiface. None of these "clicks" come through on any -playback and they do not affect my midi mockups. They only create problems when I am recording. HAs anyone every had this problem? Tomorrow I am going to get a different audio interface from my school and try it out. The Multiface is about 8 years old. Can it be "going bad" Windows 7 64 32GB Ram PhenomIIX6 3.32 GHz CPU Sonar X3 Multiface II Keystation Pro Midi keyboard 1200 Watt power Main drive Velociraptor 500GB 5 SSDs - 500GB
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bitman
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/19 21:07:33
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Are you using optical connections by chance?
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/19 21:16:15
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Sonar X3E? Have you used latencymon? Try updating audio interface drivers and firmware. Check driver settings are correct in Sonar. Disable intel speedstep in BIOS. Uninstall ASIO4ALL if present. Defrag. Try disabling virus scanner. Try disabling your LAN card.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/07/19 21:24:40
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/19 22:10:48
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Can you please list your reported latency values in Sonar Preferences? Also, are any effects or plugins (even Pro Channel) loaded into the project experiencing these issues? If so, please list them. Can you also list your current Driver Mode in Sonar, as well as your audio interface's ASIO Buffer Size (might be shown as a slider for performance or something like that, if not actually shown as a buffer size directly), as well as the Sample Rate for the interface and for the project? Do you happen to have a Wi-Fi adapter on this computer? (even if you do not have a browser open). If you hit 'E' on your computer keyboard, just before recording, (which will disable any loaded effects), does the recording of your mic then come out clean? (hit 'E' again to turn effects back on after testing this). Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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tomixornot
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/19 22:39:07
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Noise can also be expected on trial VST, especially on repeated intervals.
Albert i7 2600K @ 3.40GHz / MB Intel DP67BG / 16GB Ram- ADATA 250GB SSD (Boot)- Samsung Spinpoint F1 1TB HDD (Samples)Audio interface : Motu 828 MK ii i7 6700K @ 4.00GHz / MB Asrock Z170 / 16GB Ram- Samsung EVO 850 120GB / 500 GB SSD Audio interface : Roland Quad Capture Win 10 Pro / Sonar Platinum
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DumbGuy56
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/19 23:18:24
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Thanks for the quick responses - I will address as many as I can Albert 1. No trial VSTs on my computer Bob - 1. - The computer has no wireless and is not connected unless I plug in the cable. With regard to plug ins - first of all, this is happening on my computer even before Sonar is loaded. My software mixer shows input activity intermittently on all 8 inputs. STILL - with plugins taken out and prochannel turned off - clicks persist Settings: I have tried various settings. but here is the breakdown - DRIVER - For some reason ASIO does not work with RME-Audio Multiface and Sonar - RME suggests using the WDM/KS driver. I have tried Asio4all and there is no sound LATENCY - 92.9 ms - 4096 SAMPLES. ( I have experimented with this, no change) BUFFER SIZE IN RME SOFTWARE - now at 1024, but I have tried all kinds of settings here as well. Remember - these are not your typical pops and clicks from mismatched driver settings. Dr. Avalance - I never tried latencymon I have tried disabling virus protection, etc. Actually, I went into processes and services and turned off everything that I did not absolutely need. Several days ago I updated the flash and the drivers for the Multiface. For two take of a song, I was able to record without clicks and pops. By the third take they were back and the fourth take they were back to popcorn! I tried to recreate that session by uninstalling and reinstalling all the drivers, etc. Still, no good. Also - I defrag and optimize the C drive every week. I do nto defrag the SSDs as I was told that was not only not necessary, but can do damage to the drive. ONE THING I HAVE NOT TRIED - but I will - is moving the project to a different drive. I will post what I find out. Also, tomorrow I try a different audio interface. THANKS EVERYONE!
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/19 23:25:11
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Make sure that ASIO4ALL has been fully removed.
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/20 00:25:51
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That latency will KILL your chances of tracking/recording without issues. It is WAY too high. To give you an example, my system is set to record with a total round trip latency of 9.7 milliseconds, and I could lower that if I needed to, but running at 9.7 milliseconds works GREAT for my needs. TO achieve this latency, I set my audio interface's ASIO Buffer Size to 128 for recording, and either 1024 or 2048 when mixing/mastering. If this link is showing YOUR audio interface, it looks like a really nice one: http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/multiface_2.php And, IF that is the same interface, it quite clearly indicates it has ASIO driver mode available for it. If you are unable to change the driver mode in Sonar to ASIO, first try DE-selecting the interface altogether in the Sonar Preferences - under Audio>Devices, both for input and output, then click Apply. Sometimes ASIO does not show up as a viable driver mode if WDM is already selected, so if that is the case, first de-selecting it, then changing the Driver Mode in Sonar Preferences, under Audio>Playback and Recording, from WDM to ASIO, then click Apply. THEN, go back and see if Sonar automatically selects your audio interface for you, but this time running under ASIO driver mode. But FIRST, BEFORE trying the above, I would recommend that you COMPLETELY uninstall ASIO4ALL - it can and DOES frequently interfere with other ASIO drivers that are present, and is for most folks at best a band-aid. So, because we want you to try getting your audio interface to use its own ASIO drivers, you should completely uninstall ASIO4ALL. I am also hoping that you have the latest and greatest drivers installed for your audio interface, so if that is not the case, you should look into making sure those get updated too. Soooooooo, please review and test things out per the above steps, first removing ASIO4ALL, then updating your audio interface's drivers, if needed, and then trying the other de-selection/selection steps I described above. If you DO get your interface set to use ASIO for your audio interface, also try setting the ASIO Buffer Size to 128, which should be a reasonable setting when recording, and then try recording something, without adding any effects - just raw mic input - to see how that works. AND, also at that point, please list the Sonar-reported latency values when you are running with the ASIO Buffer Size set to 128. Thanks, Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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thomasabarnes
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/20 00:49:31
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Also, since you said you heard the noises when SONAR or nothing else is running or playing back audio, you can test by lowering your audio interface's sample buffer size to 10 ms or lower and see if the noise goes away. Since for some reason RME had you using the WDM driver mode, you're probably using the Multiface II for Windows sounds, as well. Also, to check to see if the problem is with the Multiface, you can try using onboard sound for Windows sounds and setting the onboard sound as the Windows playback device to see if the noise is gone away when your system is idle and nothing else is playing back. Just something to mention, in case you have to keep using WDM driver mode. If you end up having to use the Multiface for onboard sound, too, make sure you enable the option to "Share drivers with other programs" in the SONAR Unified Preference View in the Audio>Playback And Recording section, to see if that fixes the noises problem. And as mentioned, uninstall the ASIO4All driver, first. :) I know Bob will help you get to the bottom of the problem, but the above may also be useful info for you. :)
post edited by thomasabarnes - 2015/07/20 01:09:32
 "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant. SONAR Platinum X64 (jBridge), Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit, Core i7 990X Extreme Edition Processor 3.46 GHz 6 Cores, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, Crucial Ballistix 24GB 1333MHz DDR3 @1333 MHz, TASCAM UH-7000, Behringer X-Touch, EVGA GTX 980TI Superclocked 6GB, 1TB Samsung EVO 850 SSD, 150GB, 320GB, 1TB 7200rpm HDDs
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tomixornot
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/20 07:20:29
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Another suggestion, run Sonar with full admin right, especially if you just upgraded. It happens to me after a Sonar upgrade some version back. A few of my fully authorized VST still need admin right to ..settle down at least the first run after upgrading.
Albert i7 2600K @ 3.40GHz / MB Intel DP67BG / 16GB Ram- ADATA 250GB SSD (Boot)- Samsung Spinpoint F1 1TB HDD (Samples)Audio interface : Motu 828 MK ii i7 6700K @ 4.00GHz / MB Asrock Z170 / 16GB Ram- Samsung EVO 850 120GB / 500 GB SSD Audio interface : Roland Quad Capture Win 10 Pro / Sonar Platinum
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slartabartfast
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/20 11:41:05
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DumbGuy56 Looking at the wave file, you can see the clicks as lines that max out on the track. these clicks were space apart maybe every 20 seconds or longer. None of these "clicks" come through on any -playback and they do not affect my midi mockups. They only create problems when I am recording.
So the "clicks" are transient signals exceeding 0dB--clipping. You can probably forget about anything having to do with dropouts/latency issues. Dropouts are absent signals not peakes too high to encode. You also do not need to do anything about reinstalling anything, this is most likely a true recording of an electrical glitch, especially since it is seen only when the signal is coming from a microphone. A small spark somewhere in your audio chain, or even just in the area of your studio or your electrical system could be the culprit. I am confused about the"come through on any playback" statement. Are you saying that when you play back a recorded audio track that shows one of these clipped peaks you do not hear a click?
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DumbGuy56
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/20 19:25:29
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Thanks again all. First - Bob - I can't find an ASIO driver on the RME website for my interface. Did you see one somewhere? I will try all suggestions - but, for clarification: 1. There is no Asio4all on my system. 2. I tried the an Asio driver, but it was not working with Sonar. when I contacted RME, they said just to use the WDM/KS driver. I will go and try to get the ASIO to work. the WDM/KS will not allow for a latency lower than 96 ms 3. I updated all drivers before the original post. 4. My computer has been set up for audio according to the directions ion the web - all Windows system sounds were turned off long ago. Also the "share drivers" - I have tried this both ways to no avail. I think the electrical glitch is what is happening. To clarify something: The source of the clicks and pops are not there because of the microphone, they are there before a microphone is plugged in - they only come out in tracks through the Multiface II interface. I will try to put an instrument through the interface as well and see if the same things happens. As stated above - when I first turn the computer on, before I open Sonar, or anything, I open the software mixer that is always running in he background and is associated with the audio interface. When the mixer comes up - in channels 1-8 analog, you can see the impulses jump up and down at random. I meant to go borrow another audio interface today, but did not get there, I will do so tomorrow. I will also try all of the other suggestions, starting with the ASIO driver. STILL - for clarification: The clicks and pops a
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DumbGuy56
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/20 19:32:39
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update - I found an asio driver in the WDM/KS driver I downloaded. when I go into sonar, and change the driver to ASIO, Sonar does not recognize my analogue channels, so there is no audio output. What am I doing wrong?
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Cactus Music
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/20 20:10:56
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This sure sounds like 100% hardware to me. Time for a new interface I guess. I would contact RME and see what they say first. The fact that it's glitching in a stand alone state say's it all.
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thomasabarnes
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/20 22:39:35
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Hi DumbGuy56: I was aware that you said you are having the clicks and pops problem without running SONAR or playing back anything, so I was suggesting troubleshooting steps to see if it is a problem with your hardware (the Multiface II). Important troubleshooting steps: 1) Use another audio interface to see if the clicks and pops or noise you hear when the system is idle is gone. Onboard sound is an audio interface. Turn off or disconnect the Multiface, and use the onboard sound to see if you still have the clicks and pops problem. If you don't, we can see it's the Multiface. If the clicks and pops are still present when using the Onboard sound, it's not the Multiface, and we have to find the source. 2) If 1. shows the clicks and pops are gone, use the onboard sound as the Windows Default Playback Device. Do you know how to do that? 3) Let's turn our attention to the Multiface II. Is your Multiface the exact one that Bob provided a link to (see: http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/multiface_2.php )? If not can you provide a link to the exact Multiface you're using? 4) Having a sample playback buffer to high can be a source of click and pops. That's why I was wondering if you are uisng the Multiface II as the Windows default playback device, and mentioned to lower the sample playback buffer size to 10ms or lower. Since, 96 is the lowest you can go, try that. Does the pops and click go away? When we know the exact audio interface you are using, we can go download the ASIO drivers for it. RME has some of the best ASIO drivers in the indusrty and I would be shocked if there were no ASIO drivers for your RME model. But I would like to know the exact model you have, before proceeding any further.
post edited by thomasabarnes - 2015/07/20 22:59:06
 "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant. SONAR Platinum X64 (jBridge), Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit, Core i7 990X Extreme Edition Processor 3.46 GHz 6 Cores, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, Crucial Ballistix 24GB 1333MHz DDR3 @1333 MHz, TASCAM UH-7000, Behringer X-Touch, EVGA GTX 980TI Superclocked 6GB, 1TB Samsung EVO 850 SSD, 150GB, 320GB, 1TB 7200rpm HDDs
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thomasabarnes
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/20 22:39:36
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Double post.
post edited by thomasabarnes - 2015/07/20 22:47:32
 "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant. SONAR Platinum X64 (jBridge), Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit, Core i7 990X Extreme Edition Processor 3.46 GHz 6 Cores, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, Crucial Ballistix 24GB 1333MHz DDR3 @1333 MHz, TASCAM UH-7000, Behringer X-Touch, EVGA GTX 980TI Superclocked 6GB, 1TB Samsung EVO 850 SSD, 150GB, 320GB, 1TB 7200rpm HDDs
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rabeach
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/20 23:32:23
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all 8 channels showing sporadic impulses with nothing plugged in would lead me to investigate a power supply issue. an unstable Vcc saturating the comparators on the sigma delta converters could cause max outputs to lock until the excessive voltage dropped to the specified range. does the unit receive its power from fire wire or does it have a separate source. if possible plug the unit into another PC or if externally powered another receptacle. you may need to send the unit to the manufacture for repair.
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DumbGuy56
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/21 13:03:40
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THANKS again guys 1. Yes - the MultifaceII in the picture is the same as mine. 2. It is powered by firewire. I will try an external source. 3. I have contacted RME. 4. I will try a new interface later today. I have a Steinberg UR22 - USB interface from school that I can try. It is brand new. 5. I downloaded the latest drivers from RME. For this until, they offer the WDM drivers, which state that they include ASIO drivers; however, when I set it to ASIO, all the analog channels are not usable. 6. I so know how to switch to the build-in motherboard sound, so, if the UR22 does not work, I will try the onboard sound. I do, however, seem to remember that the onboard sound was not compatible with the DAW. I do not quite remember why. Mr. Rabeach - sounds like you have a handle on the electrical part, but I took my last electrical engineering class in 1975. Can you translate to either English or New Jersey for me? Thanks to all of you for your help. Although I do not do a lot of recording with my microphones, I have several projects that will require their use, so I want to resolve this. Thanks again - I will update later.
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JonD
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/21 13:37:11
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I've seen some weird behavior with stored up static electricity in a computer -- usually happens when one or more capacitors are going out. Try this: Unplug the computer's AC power. Hold the power button in for a few seconds (This purges the electricity). Plug power back in and boot up.
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DumbGuy56
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/21 13:37:49
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Thank Jon - will do later today!
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/21 14:14:28
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See if you can determine which chipset your Firewire connection is using. For audio, it NEEDS to be Texas Instruments
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rabeach
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/21 14:47:15
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DumbGuy56 THANKS again guys 1. Yes - the MultifaceII in the picture is the same as mine. 2. It is powered by firewire. I will try an external source. 3. I have contacted RME. 4. I will try a new interface later today. I have a Steinberg UR22 - USB interface from school that I can try. It is brand new. 5. I downloaded the latest drivers from RME. For this until, they offer the WDM drivers, which state that they include ASIO drivers; however, when I set it to ASIO, all the analog channels are not usable. 6. I so know how to switch to the build-in motherboard sound, so, if the UR22 does not work, I will try the onboard sound. I do, however, seem to remember that the onboard sound was not compatible with the DAW. I do not quite remember why. Mr. Rabeach - sounds like you have a handle on the electrical part, but I took my last electrical engineering class in 1975. Can you translate to either English or New Jersey for me? Thanks to all of you for your help. Although I do not do a lot of recording with my microphones, I have several projects that will require their use, so I want to resolve this. Thanks again - I will update later.
Your PC power supply may be failing or you have a power problem associated with firewire on the PC side or in the device itself. Just a guess though.
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DumbGuy56
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/21 20:09:39
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OK- NOW I am going to live up to my handle as a true "DumbGuy" - I borrowed a new audio interface and dropped by my local computer store to ask the techs there about some possibilities. THEN I came home, and went to set up the new interface, but first I had to turn the old one off, which means I had to slide out the woofer cabinet to get to the back switch. As I reached down for the on-off toggle, I noticed that one of the speaker wires detatched from the back of the woofer (which is also the electronics part of the Blue Sky 5.1 speaker system. Well, before I turned the system off to try the new interface, I decided to try the MultifaceII again with the speaker reattached. There are no more clips!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHH> Still, I need to figure out how to set up the ASIO driver, so all is not in vain. If you could see my face, I would be looking extra stupid.
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DumbGuy56
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/21 20:25:15
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OK - forget that one - the clicks are back. The system had been off for about 18 hours, so when I turned it on - it took a while for the clicks to starrt up. OK - on to the new interface
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Jean
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/21 20:25:34
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Do you have anything to do with worclock or ADAT running?
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Ibanez Laney
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/21 23:01:42
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One Idea - Put your moblie phone in another room. It is amazing how much trouble they can cause when recording.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/21 23:36:08
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Bristol_Jonesey See if you can determine which chipset your Firewire connection is using. For audio, it NEEDS to be Texas Instruments
VIA perfectly OK as well..
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
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peregrine
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/22 00:36:18
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If you get the same issue with a second AI, I would pull the power supply and check it, assuming you have a meter, or take it to a shop for a bench check. It could easily be giving you the noise you're seeing. For a replacement, your specs indicate you could operate perfectly well with less than half of that 1200w beast, unless you have a really insane video card.
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joakes
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/22 01:50:46
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DumbGuy56
Bob - 1. - The computer has no wireless and is not connected unless I plug in the cable
Just a thought : removing the LAN cable is not enough. You need to disable the LAN in Device Manager. Especially for recording. That action cured my latency problem. There was a thread started by Bitflipper in another forum (Techinques ?) that gave some simple scripting solutions that would disable then enable your LAN from the desktop. Also make sure Bluetooth Service really is disabled. Cheers, Jerry
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Cactus Music
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Re: Clicks and pops in background - nothing on
2015/07/22 12:27:11
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At this point I would clean up around your system, Disconnect everything. If you have a hardwired mouse and keyboard use them. Get all sources of RF interfearance out of the room. Don't even plug in the speakers,, nothing. Now fire it up and open the software mixer and see if those spikes return. If they are there , change the audio interface. If they are not there then you start adding equipment until there return. This thread is long but did anyone get you to run Latency Monitor? http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon Back before I had an audio interface I noticed certain PC's or Laptops would show action ( noise floor) if I opened Wave Lab and put it in record standby. This is with nothing plugged in. A PC is potentually a noisey place. USB and Firewire is easily contaminated too.
post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/07/22 12:39:26
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