californiamusic
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Clip Gain in X2
I saw a video on how Clip Gain is handled in Protools 10, when adjusting the volume.. the wave visually changes. Can this be done in X2? Here's the vid I had seen... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YMPEtgb0tY
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emwhy
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/21 20:30:46
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Hold the CONTROL key and rest your mouse over the clip, you can then adjust the gain. It doesn't visible shrink the wave form but you get an automation line.
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stevec
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/21 22:00:23
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AFAIK, only fades directly affect the waveform display at this point.
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chuckebaby
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/21 22:27:39
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you can use automation, I find that is the easest way for me to work with clip changes in DB's
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/21 23:33:50
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The way that Pro Tools (and Studio One) handles clip gain is by far the best. It is way faster. I can cut up an audio region into several clips and just drag on the little clip gain widget for each of the individual segments and the waveform gets bigger/smaller. It allows you to match things very closely by eye. I could level up a track in fraction of the time you guys are doing with automation. I have got so used to this I could not live without it now.
IMO Automation is not the way to go. It is for other things. Rather than deal with smaller more fiddly aspects within a clip, automation can be used more for what it does well and that is making smoother changes here and there on tracks over time. Or just turn the odd section up or down as required. Automation can do fiddly things but then you needs lots of nodes to do it. With clip gain you just cut the odd things and separate them and tweak clip gains to suit. The thing is once you have levelled and evened things up clip gain wise, automation is actually rarely required. One less thing to do.
Once the clip gains are tweaked then the automation lines are still there for clips and tracks and it is easier to use them that way as well. It is when you use clip gain and automation things get interesting.
Not seeing the waveforms reflect clip gain is also not good either. You need to have some visual feedback that you have done something to a clip and the waveform height is the best way to do it.
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stevec
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 07:50:14
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IMO Automation is not the way to go. It is for other things. Rather than deal with smaller more fiddly aspects within a clip, automation can be used more for what it does well and that is making smoother changes here and there on tracks over time. Or just turn the odd section up or down as required. Automation can do fiddly things but then you needs lots of nodes to do it. With clip gain you just cut the odd things and separate them and tweak clip gains to suit. The thing is once you have levelled and evened things up clip gain wise, automation is actually rarely required. One less thing to do. Definitely a case of YMMV... I usually don't find selecting regions of clips, splitting those clips, and then dragging gain envelopes up or down any more efficient than selecting regions of an automation envelope (in a lane) and dragging it up or down instead. I do use clip gain envelopes in the way you've described, but for specific purposes - clip gain changes affect the level routed to track FX so can change the end results when using FX like compression or amp sims. But that can be a good thing depending on the circumstances. Fiddly clip splitting + clip gain changes or fiddly volume envelope changes. Fiddly is fiddly to me. 
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 08:49:22
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What I like is the clip visual representation eg waveform height does change and it is with this you can go along and easily raise up waveforms that look a little low or drop ones down that appear a little high. You will soon hear if your clip gain change sounds natural. Sometimes it may not and it also quick and easy to reset clip gain back to 0dB. By doing this you are going a long way to track levels being very consistent especially feeding into FX which everything comes after clip gain. The need for further automation is reduced and when I use automation it is usually for easy and simple moves here and there. Breaking into smaller clips is also easy (in Studio One) and only requires one keystroke to bring up the cut tool You can snap to grid easily or make fine cuts anywhere. I have found at least after using this facility I have really grown to like it and depend on it a lot. Under pressure when mixing with time constraints too if a little section of a track gets a tiny bit lost it is so quick to make a separate clip and raise it up 3 db or so (or so it visually matches the other parts on the track) all on your main edit window and you are done. If you work using the K system and you have chosen a ref level of -14 dB then most of the time you have got an additional 14 dB of clip gain which can be added without clipping and this is a lot. The amount of positive clip gain you have depends on how transient your material is.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/05/22 08:56:39
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benjaminfrog
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 09:22:14
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Hi, californiamusic. I've submitted this as a feature request. I encourage you to do so as well - if you haven't already. The more voices they hear, presumably, the more likely they are to add it.
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californiamusic
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 10:40:50
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As Jeff said.. the ability to "See" the waveform getting smaller or larger and being able to visually match area's is so helpful. When I write a volume change now, I have to go back and listen to see if I'm in the ballpark then re-adjust ; )
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gerberbaby
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 11:35:14
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Everybody, literally everbody I know who is an established pro, uses the clip gain feature ala visual waveform in PT. This is the single most obvious flaw along with the efx bin that exists in Sonar. Being able to match levels visually on the waveform is crucial to efficiently comping parts and getting a balanced level befrore processing. if people want to defend a poorly designed faded green dotted automation line as even remotely the same then this is laughable. I am begging for cakewalk to add this feature along with modular efx bin with cells like PT.
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stevec
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 11:53:30
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This is all why I included "YMMV".  If clip gain envelopes changed the waveform display, in SONAR, I'm sure I would very much like it and use it. I think it's a great idea. But it doesn't exist in SONAR so at this point it's simply a missing feature. However, I still don't see myself suddenly not using track automation because of it - they each serve a purpose. I guess in the end I don't find this missing feature absoutely "essential". Perhaps if I had used it all the time and then it was suddenly gone, I might feel different. But honestly, swipe and drag on automation lanes (with bright green envelopes) works OK for me. So does splitting clips and Ctrl+Dragging to adjust clip gain envelopes. Most of the time I don't want to affect what's feeding the track FX, so... PS: I wonder if bus waveform previews might fit into this discussion too. Particularly when a group of tracks feeds a single bus, and the cumulative results are more important than each individual track.
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John
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 11:58:08
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gerberbaby
Everybody, literally everbody I know who is an established pro, uses the clip gain feature ala visual waveform in PT. This is the single most obvious flaw along with the efx bin that exists in Sonar. Being able to match levels visually on the waveform is crucial to efficiently comping parts and getting a balanced level befrore processing. if people want to defend a poorly designed faded green dotted automation line as even remotely the same then this is laughable. I am begging for cakewalk to add this feature along with modular efx bin with cells like PT.
First if one is using the same program that does something a certain way then it would be odd for anyone using that program to do it another way. This addresses the statement about all pros doing one way. Using wave forms size is not the way to decide loudness. That is what ones ears are for. Since when did we start relying on our eyes and not our ears? Further depending on the content of the wave file you really can't tell by looking at it just how loud it is. Now I understand that some like the idea of increasing the size with a change of level. I am not persuaded that it is a requirement. I have done just fine with with the more obvious indication of a line i.e. automation.
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stevec
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 12:24:43
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Now I understand that some like the idea of increasing the size with a change of level. I am not persuaded that it is a requirement. Not to keep going on and on, but... I do think it's a great idea - as a reference point. I know from using SONAR's waveform fade display that what I hear is not always what I see. Although, I'd imagine it might be a little better when comparing entire waveforms vs. smaller fade areas. At the same time I do agree that it's not really a "requirement" per se, but rather a very nice feature to have. And I'm sure I will use it whenever CW adds it, when applicable, just like every other tool.
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John
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 12:29:00
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stevec
Now I understand that some like the idea of increasing the size with a change of level. I am not persuaded that it is a requirement.
Not to keep going on and on, but... I do think it's a great idea - as a reference point. I know from using SONAR's waveform fade display that what I hear is not always what I see. Although, I'd imagine it might be a little better when comparing entire waveforms vs. smaller fade areas. At the same time I do agree that it's not really a "requirement" per se, but rather a very nice feature to have. And I'm sure I will use it whenever CW adds it, when applicable, just like every other tool.
My problem is with relying on it as a way to compare loudness.
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californiamusic
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 12:30:19
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Seems it would be much quicker to "Visually" adjust THEN use your ears and tweek. When you write a volume now you almost always need to head back over and over to get it correct.. the visual angle just gets you in the ballpark faster.
Perhaps they will add this feature in an update for those of us looking for it ; )
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scook
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 12:39:32
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californiamusic
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 13:21:17
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Yep true. I already did a Feature Request on it. I think Sonar is the only DAW that doesn't have this feature, so it's probably already on their list ; )
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 17:50:27
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Using a visual approach is easy to even up loudness and yes John you can rely on it and very well too. As long as the main body of the waveforms match about 95% of the time the levels are perfect right through a series of clip gain changes.
With me I have VU meters showing the ref level all the time. (another reason you should have VU's showing you your stereo mix ALL the time!) So for me my VU is reaching 0db Vu or full scale for most of the track. After adjusting clip gain I simply backtrack a bar or two I can play over the clip gained section and the VU still tells me if there is anything a miss. What I usually see are waveforms that roughly match in size, and the VU's all peaking just the right amount and my ears are also telling me that everything is now nice ad even.
It is a fantastic feature pure and simple and Sonar should have it. Studio One has it and it is also better implemented than in Pro Tools even.
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John
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 18:20:36
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Well now I need that I'm convinced! I will not use Sonar any more unless it has that.
Sorry I'm just going to muddle along without it.
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rodreb
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 18:35:53
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That does sound like a great way to handle clip gain. It would be really nice if Cakewalk would impliment it. Not a total deal breaker,though.
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aleef
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/22 23:07:33
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its an awsome feature in Pro Tools that you will become easily dependant upon. and it can be done in realtime.
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backwoods
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/23 00:36:20
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I've requested this a couple of times. Most of the DAWs do it. I think Cubendo was the first DAW to implement it.
Not long ago the fade in and fade out didn't change the waveform in Sonar but now they do, so at least that is a start.
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Kev999
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/23 06:27:26
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backwoods
Not long ago the fade in and fade out didn't change the waveform in Sonar but now they do, so at least that is a start. I would prefer if it didn't do this. I like to be aware of the transients near the point where the audio fades out. Displaying them smaller doesn't help.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/23 06:43:20
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stickman393
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/23 15:34:11
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Having clip fades optionally affect waveform appearance *is* an option, and was since the feature was added.
I think it is called "Display Clip Fade Attenuation" in the Display section of preferences.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/23 16:25:23
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I think it is important for waveforms to visually change with fades at either end of a clip. If the start of a clip has a transient sound present then you would see and hear it as such.
If you apply a fade at the start of that clip, that start transient will all but disappear. The waveform shape should reflect that also. It is telling you the same thing as what you are hearing. Why would you want it any other way.
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John
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/23 16:42:16
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Well I am used to the way it is. And I use my ears to decide these things. I wont say its not nice to see a wave change but to me it has never been an important thing to have. I would never rely on a picture or any other visual when I have ears as my ultimate acoustic device.
The example about fades in Sonar is a good one for me. Though the option is there for it, it adds nothing to using a line and then confirm with listening.
Whether a line or a change in wave form it still boils down to how it sounds.
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Dave Modisette
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/23 16:54:25
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Why would you want it any other way. Editing. Reaper and Samplitude both seem to behave more like SONAR in regards to waveform display and envelope settings. I can see the benefit in a change but I think I would need a very convenient way to be able to switch it on and off.
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GIM Productions
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/23 17:32:40
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Hi all,only for precision,Sonar had the clip gain feature three years before Protools 10. Best
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californiamusic
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Re:Clip Gain in X2
2013/05/23 23:44:12
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Hmm I have "Display Clip Fade Attenuation" selected and my wave does not respond visually when drawing a volume envelope. What am I missing here??! ; )
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