paulo
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Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
Currently on 2017.07 , but this has been happening for quite a long time now through various versions and I'm not sure where it started, but I am sure that it didn't always do this. If a softsynth midi clip starts at say 08:01:001, the frozen audio clip might be positioned at 07:04:959 or 08:01:005. It's a minor shift, but irritating. I've been altering the clip start time manually all this time, but I'm really fed up of doing it now.
Is it just me ?
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Anderton
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/12 19:15:12
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I don't know if those variances are illustrative or actual measured examples, but I would be surprised if the audio appeared before the MIDI note triggering it. I would not be surprised if it appeared slightly later - the same as if you recorded the synth's audio track while playing back its MIDI track, due to the instrument's processing delay between receiving the note-on data and generating the actual note. But that's just a theory, I don't know for sure.
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paulo
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/12 19:49:27
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Anderton
I don't know if those variances are illustrative or actual measured examples, but I would be surprised if the audio appeared before the MIDI note triggering it. I would not be surprised if it appeared slightly later - the same as if you recorded the synth's audio track while playing back its MIDI track, due to the instrument's processing delay between receiving the note-on data and generating the actual note. But that's just a theory, I don't know for sure.
The "before" example was an actual example. One instrument track only , synth = TTS-1 Piano preset, one note. Clip durations also change, which I understand due to release settings, but it was the fact that sometimes clips are early that made it seem to me like something is wrong.
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Anderton
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 02:35:35
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Again, just going with theory here because I'm not having this problem...maybe the ASIO interface is reporting the wrong latency? Some interfaces are very accurate in their reporting (IIRC Line 6 is really good about this) while others...not so much. Perhaps SONAR is compensating for latency based on what it thinks the compensation should be?
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msorrels
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 04:07:24
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Brando
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 13:29:41
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I never use TTS-1 and in trying to replicate Matt's experiment it crashed SONAR twice. So I repeated the exercise using the free Synth 1 synth solo'd in another project. I placed the note at 8.01, then froze the synth. The inspector showed 7.04 exactly as it did for Matt. However, the resulting audio clip starts at exactly 8.01 here. When I unfreeze the synth the inspector shows the clip correctly at 8.01.
Seems it's an error in how the inspector reports frozen clips.
Brando
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Keni
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 14:35:42
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Does the frozen audio sound correct? The clip itself may start early based on a number of factors, but the events should be the same as the triggered midi/audio.
To make track importing (into other DAWs) i often extend the first clip all the way to zero. Some synths seem to render beginning exactly on the first event while others render begins a bit of time before the first event?
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Brando
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 15:05:02
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Keni - I assume you are asking the OP. But just in case, in my case everything sounds fine with the resultant audio. And the audio appears where I expect it to be. The only peculiarity here is the reported clip location in the inspector which I have never observed before. It seems to me that Paulo's system is misreporting ASIO latency as Craig suggested. Not sure.
Brando
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...wicked
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 15:34:37
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Well that's what, one tick of time? I'd try zooming in and see if there's any audio there. The clip might have a 1-tick lead in before signal actually occurs.
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Keni
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 15:43:13
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Yes Brando...
I was responding to the OP...
He specifies where the clip is early, but not the actual event and as he notes, the ends vary based on the sound's release regardless of MIDI value...
I frequently see differences in frozen audio clip start times that vary synth to synth...
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paulo
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 17:53:10
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Brando
I never use TTS-1 and in trying to replicate Matt's experiment it crashed SONAR twice. So I repeated the exercise using the free Synth 1 synth solo'd in another project. I placed the note at 8.01, then froze the synth. The inspector showed 7.04 exactly as it did for Matt. However, the resulting audio clip starts at exactly 8.01 here. When I unfreeze the synth the inspector shows the clip correctly at 8.01.
Seems it's an error in how the inspector reports frozen clips.
I don't usually use TTS-1 either, but I used that as an example because I figured that it would be a synth that everyone here has at their disposal if they were inclined to test the issue. No idea why it should crash your system. I hadn't considered that the inspector might be misleading me, but I just checked on other projects and it would seem that whatever the inspector says is wherever the frozen clip actually is on the timeline - most often at :005 or :006 rather than the :001 where the first event of the midi clip is, so it seems that the clip info in the inspector is representing the actual position of the clip properly, it's just that the clip isn't quite where it should be.
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paulo
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 17:58:40
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Keni
Does the frozen audio sound correct? The clip itself may start early based on a number of factors, but the events should be the same as the triggered midi/audio.
To make track importing (into other DAWs) i often extend the first clip all the way to zero. Some synths seem to render beginning exactly on the first event while others render begins a bit of time before the first event?
Mostly they're not out enough to sound particularly bad, thoug I have had some that were. I first noticed the differences when editing and moving clips around that they weren't exactly the same as the midi clip and thought that was odd. To my logic, if the midi clip starts at 16:01:001 that's where it should be putting the start of the frozen clip.
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paulo
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 18:00:20
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...wicked
Well that's what, one tick of time? I'd try zooming in and see if there's any audio there. The clip might have a 1-tick lead in before signal actually occurs.
As far as I can tell from zooming in there is no lead in.
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paulo
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/13 18:08:06
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Keni
Yes Brando...
I was responding to the OP...
He specifies where the clip is early, but not the actual event and as he notes, the ends vary based on the sound's release regardless of MIDI value...
I frequently see differences in frozen audio clip start times that vary synth to synth...
Looking at the waveform the audio in the frozen clip is right at the beginning. It's a small amount to be out, but I just though it odd that anything would be rendered as starting earlier than the first event, by any amount. I'm also pretty sure that this didn't used to happen and my hardware set up has been the same for years, only the version of sonar has changed.
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paulo
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 17:44:13
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In case anyone is still reading, this misalignment issue only occurs in platinum.
In X3e Pro using the same freeze test as above the frozen clip is exactly where the midi clip is, which is good in the sense that it means that I'm not going mad and it hasn't always done this, but bad in the sense that yet another thing that used to work properly is broken in Plat.
Sigh.
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paulo
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 17:44:23
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paulo
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 17:44:48
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* And again * 
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Brando
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 18:06:16
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I'm not seeing this in Platinum. Are you sure you haven't got an erroneous setting in your driver settings for "Use ASIO Reported Latency"?
Are your settings the same between X3 and SPlat?
Brando
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Brando
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 18:10:28
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The other thought is whether you might have one or more plugins in your fx bin in SPlat when you are freezing?
Also because it's not happening here, have you tried it in a fresh project to see if it's project dependent?
Brando
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paulo
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 19:12:51
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Thanks Brando for sticking with me.
Same hardware and settings (WDM not ASIO FWIW). The test scenario was a new Plat project with only one synth and no other plug-ins at all, so it isn't fx bin related. Msorrels duplicated the test (post #5) and had the same result, so it's not just me. As I said, I did exactly the same test today in X3 and it doesn't happen.
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Brando
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 19:42:14
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paulo
Thanks Brando for sticking with me.
Same hardware and settings (WDM not ASIO FWIW). The test scenario was a new Plat project with only one synth and no other plug-ins at all, so it isn't fx bin related. Msorrels duplicated the test (post #5) and had the same result, so it's not just me. As I said, I did exactly the same test today in X3 and it doesn't happen.
Not exactly - unless I am missing something. Look at where the clip actually is in MSorrel's frozen clip example - 8.01. I know the inspector says 7.04 as it did for me as well, but the actual clip is still at 8.01
Brando
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Keni
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 19:46:06
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paulo
...wicked
Well that's what, one tick of time? I'd try zooming in and see if there's any audio there. The clip might have a 1-tick lead in before signal actually occurs.
As far as I can tell from zooming in there is no lead in.
This seems to vary with synth...
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paulo
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 20:10:37
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Brando
paulo
Thanks Brando for sticking with me.
Same hardware and settings (WDM not ASIO FWIW). The test scenario was a new Plat project with only one synth and no other plug-ins at all, so it isn't fx bin related. Msorrels duplicated the test (post #5) and had the same result, so it's not just me. As I said, I did exactly the same test today in X3 and it doesn't happen.
Not exactly - unless I am missing something. Look at where the clip actually is in MSorrel's frozen clip example - 8.01.
I know the inspector says 7.04 as it did for me as well, but the actual clip is still at 8.01
I don't think you can really tell from that pic he posted. Mine looks like it's ok and the inspector is wrong until I really zoom in very close and then you can see that actually the inspector is reporting correctly and the clip does in fact start slightly before the mark
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msorrels
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 20:16:42
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The clip does start before the mark. I've stripped the project down to just the track itself. I'd think any version of SONAR should be able to read it (since TTS-1 comes with SONAR). Load it up, hit the freeze button on the track and select the audio and look at it in the inspector. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6PJ_vzx_2PaMEY3bzlvbHhORGc
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msorrels
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 20:22:37
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I'm not actually sure it's "wrong" audiowise though.
I don't think it should have anything to do with your audio interface/settings though, since it doesn't render to the sound card.
It does have something to do with the synth, since each synth tells SONAR what its latency is. Perhaps freeze uses that to decide where to start the audio on the timeline incorrectly?
As I said I think the results bring up a good question, since it's not what I think it should be. But I'm not 100% sure it's a bug/failure though. Perhaps someone from Cakewalk could shed some light on it.
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Brando
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/14 20:41:31
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paulo
Brando
paulo
Thanks Brando for sticking with me.
Same hardware and settings (WDM not ASIO FWIW). The test scenario was a new Plat project with only one synth and no other plug-ins at all, so it isn't fx bin related. Msorrels duplicated the test (post #5) and had the same result, so it's not just me. As I said, I did exactly the same test today in X3 and it doesn't happen.
Not exactly - unless I am missing something. Look at where the clip actually is in MSorrel's frozen clip example - 8.01.
I know the inspector says 7.04 as it did for me as well, but the actual clip is still at 8.01
I don't think you can really tell from that pic he posted. Mine looks like it's ok and the inspector is wrong until I really zoom in very close and then you can see that actually the inspector is reporting correctly and the clip does in fact start slightly before the mark
Hi Paulo - Unfortunately I am not at my DAW. Will take a closer look when I get to it and can take a closer look.
Brando
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konradh
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/15 19:07:32
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This happens to me sometimes. If I unfreeze and refreeze, it's usually OK.
For me, the clip is always late and not early.
Just for the record, I often freeze and instrument, drag the audio to a new track, and then delete the virtual instrument to save resources. I would not do this with a critical, foundational instrument, but if I have a percussion sound, or short instrument line, etc., I don't mind deleting the instrument since it would always be easy to redo it if I needed to.
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Brando
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/15 20:41:34
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paulo
Brando
paulo
Thanks Brando for sticking with me.
Same hardware and settings (WDM not ASIO FWIW). The test scenario was a new Plat project with only one synth and no other plug-ins at all, so it isn't fx bin related. Msorrels duplicated the test (post #5) and had the same result, so it's not just me. As I said, I did exactly the same test today in X3 and it doesn't happen.
Not exactly - unless I am missing something. Look at where the clip actually is in MSorrel's frozen clip example - 8.01.
I know the inspector says 7.04 as it did for me as well, but the actual clip is still at 8.01
I don't think you can really tell from that pic he posted. Mine looks like it's ok and the inspector is wrong until I really zoom in very close and then you can see that actually the inspector is reporting correctly and the clip does in fact start slightly before the mark
That's not the behaviour I get here. (Again using Synth1 rather than TTS-1 which is crashing here). I just did a repeat (sorry for the delay in posting back) and I can zoom in farther than I ever normally would. The MIDI note that I placed at 8.01 is exactly at 8.01 when frozen, and then again when unfrozen again.
Brando
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msorrels
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/15 21:28:21
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Using Rapture Session and the A Room Piano, the Inspector shows the 7:04:959 and when you zoom in you can see the waveform starts before the 8:01:000 (where the play head is in this screen shot). 
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msorrels
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Re: Clips not in exactly the same place when frozen
2017/08/15 21:40:55
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It does it with Synth1 for me as well (I had to download and install it, deleted it years ago). With Synth1 the clip starts at 7:04:959 and if you zoom in enough you can see it really does start there.
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