Cold

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bitflipper
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2013/12/07 11:39:27 (permalink)

Cold

I don't normally keep the heat on at night in my office/studio in a converted garage. Normally, this isn't a problem because it's well-insulated. But this morning I came in and it was 35 degrees Fahrenheit in here! Yikes. It's an unusually cold 14 degrees outside (that's -10 for you Celsius guys).
 
This got me thinking about gear that might be sensitive to cold. I don't keep my guitars out here, but what about other things with mechanical components, such as microphones and speakers? Anyone seen any hard data or manufacturers' recommendations for acceptable temperature ranges?


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    eric_peterson
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/07 12:08:17 (permalink)
    It's 19 degrees here in Portland. You made me curious as to how cold my studio was getting - the oil filled baseboard heaters I installed are off. It was 63 degrees down there, not too bad. I tapped into my HVAC when I built it just to circulate the air and added special sound trapping, it was elaborate and works great from an audio perspective, but ended up a bit anemic from an airflow perspective. That's what you get when you are a hardware/software/systems engineer that thinks he knows it all ... LOL! I tried. That aside, it is keeping up for now.
    #2
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/07 12:21:05 (permalink)
    My fingers get stiff when it's below 32*.
     
    I don't have any familiarity with any facts but what I watch out for is rapid changes in temperature that might create condensation build up in the internals of my electronic gear.
     
    best regards,
    mike


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    King_Windom
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/07 12:29:08 (permalink)
     
          The condensation angle is a good one. Your computer will probably like the cold as long as the temp is not low enough to affect the lubricants in the fans (well below 35 I am sure).        
     
          Dan
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    ampfixer
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/07 13:10:16 (permalink)
    I'm not sure that the cold will effect anything. Humidity is always a problem and with temperature swings it's an even bigger problem. A heated space shouldn't be a problem if well insulated. If you are ok the gear will be ok. If the change in conditions would make you uncomfortable then your gear could suffer. I can't store items like speakers or transformers in a simple shed because they will corrode. Add insulation and humidity control and there's no issues.
     
    In your case, a rapid increase in temperature could cause moisture and condensation on metal. They used to have warnings about it on VCR's :) The things that could be affected are contacts, transformers and speakers. Modern speakers are not usually a problem but vintage speakers with very small air gaps can develop a voice coil rub if corrosion builds up.

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    #5
    bitflipper
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/07 18:08:20 (permalink)
    I hadn't thought about humidity. I actually have a hygrometer on the wall, although I almost never look at it. If I can trust it, it's telling me the humidity's rather low. That's probably right, since it's pretty dry outside, too.
     
    My biggest concern was for microphones and speakers, which represent my biggest monetary investment. The microphones are in pouches, inside a metal briefcase with dessicant (I save those little silica gel packets that come in aspirin bottles and such, and throw them into the mic case.) The microphones are probably OK.
     
    Speakers, I'm not sure about. I'm trying to think of a reason why they'd care about temperature. My main speakers are made of high-tech materials that can stop bullets and the tweeters are plastic, but my less-expensive subwoofer has a coated paper cone. Both have a surround made from a flexible rubber-like material attaching the cone to the frame, and I wonder if it might lose elasticity in extreme cold, and then possibly crack or malform in use.


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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/07 23:00:25 (permalink)
    If cold was bad for gear, my stuff would have been toast 30 years ago. I switched to using an Explorer from a PU with a canope for that reason after the Sunburst finish on my Tele cracked up like a dry mud puddle. I had to travel for 2 hours to a gig and the PU had no room in front for our instruments.  It was like it is today here -20 C. 
    I just turned the Exporer into a permanent snow plow and will switch to using a Subaru Outback, MY 18" sub just fits. But it's nice to arrive at gigs with everything all nice and warm still.  
    I store all my PA gear outside in an unheated shed, The main thing is moisture and not the cold I think.
    My Yamaha speakers are at least 18 years old and seem just fine. There are power amps, cables and lighting gear in there. So that type of gear seems to take it.
    The rest I keep up in my attic studio. It is about 55 F in there in the mornings these days until I turn on the little electric fireplace.
     
    I have a old Sansui Stereo and a CD player out in my carport,  it's open on 2 sides, And the CD and Amp sometimes gets powder snow blown in on it, The speakers are pointing down from the rafters. Anyhow, it's been out there through 2 winters and sort of works just fine.. if you hit it everyonce in a while.
     
    post edited by Cactus Music - 2013/12/07 23:04:36

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/07 23:09:55 (permalink)
    I do remember that after reading an article about doing outdoor sound in SOS?  I have always sprayed my paper cones with Scotch Guard. Front and back. Note, I have not done this to my NMS10's. But All others were treated including my Bass and Guitar amps.
     
    Anyhow I think electric compenents have a wide range of temperature tolerance, There would be a point where stuff might crack if to cold. I would think mikes in pouches are OK, at least SM 58 / 57 types would be.
    post edited by Cactus Music - 2013/12/07 23:11:07

    Johnny V  
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    eric_peterson
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/08 02:33:48 (permalink)
    Looks like it might hit 5 degrees tonight! Just went down to the studio and turned on the oil filled baseboard heaters. Have not seen it this cold in about 6 years or more here in Portlandia.
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    fireberd
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/08 07:17:40 (permalink)
    When I lived up north (for many years) and transported my equipment to a job in a car trunk, in the winter it would be very cold by the time I got to the job.  Especially my Pedal steel guitar which has lots of metal/mechanical parts.  Same way with an amp and effects.  After unloading, I would wait til they got back up to or near room temperature before turning on electronic gear or trying to tune up the steel. 
     
    I don't have a studio that is in an unheated area, but if I did I would turn on the heat and let the room get up to temperature before turning on equipment.
     
    Here in Florida, with the high humidity in the summer, that is a concern in non-air conditioned locations.  
     
    I used to work as an amp tech in Nashville.  I've never had any amps that were in for repair that potentially were affected by being in the cold.  Back in the early 70's when I was there, unheated trailers were common for bands and apparently it had no affect on the equipment.  Obviously, if an amp had been stored for an extended period in a shed somewhere that is a different story. 

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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/08 07:55:33 (permalink)
    As stated already by others, AFAIK it's the condensated humidity that can be a risk. If you take gear in from cold,
    you must be sure they are thoroughly dry before switching them on. If they are kept in cold/cool room, and the temperature rises slowly, there should be no problem. Though, I can imagine that actual freezing/warming repeatedly must be a strain for many components and soldered joints etc.
     
     

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/08 08:03:43 (permalink)
    Dave I did a bit of digging around for you. Here to begin with is a SOS article which brings up a few points:
     
    http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar10/articles/qanda0310_4.htm
     
    I looked up some specs for the following items and they indicated some temperature ranges:
     
    Quest speaker  -10 C to +55C Other speakers though specified operating ranges as low as -25C and -35C in some cases.
     
    Shure PG57 Mic -29 C to +57 C
     
    Soundcraft Mixer +5 C to +40 C
     
    Korg Kronos synthesiser +5 to +35C
     
    Notice the mixer and the Korg Kronos did not like going down too far. The Korg synth obviously does not like getting too hot either +35 is easily obtainable on a pretty hot day. That would run pretty hot inside I would imagine under those conditions. In the manual also the Korg synth is very clear if there is condensation it also should not be used. Speakers and Mics seem to be OK although the Quest speaker is borderline in your case. (Other speakers went well below that though) These are operating and I guess storage temps too. The point that Mike mentions is important but also I have never felt great about all the soldering inside a lot of gear being kept at super cold temps. (and then coming into hot venues and going back out into cold temps again for longish periods) I lived in Canberra (Australia) for a long time and the temps there in the winter go down to 0 C and under. After doing gigs and getting home late I often brought the electronics gear inside. Left my drums out there though! Mechanical things like tape machines definitely don't like the cold.
     
    Personally I don't think it is great for anything but that could just be me being paranoid.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/12/08 08:19:49

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/08 12:07:44 (permalink)
    Good stuff, Jeff. Thanks. You have to wonder how they came up with those numbers. Engineers routinely do mechanical tests such as drop and shake tests, but I'd be surprised if a speaker manufacturer actually left a pair of speakers out in -10C temperatures and measured them for performance and microscopically inspected them for mechanical damage. Shure, OTOH, I can believe that they might have actually done such a thing. 
     
    It's true that electronics generally don't care about cold, and may indeed perform better at low temperatures. High-performance supercomputers' CPUs are intentionally kept very cold, it's commonplace for radio transmitter gear to be kept in an outside shed, and I have frozen ICs on many occasions, as a troubleshooting tool. Transistors and integrated circuits don't care, and tubes provide their own heat. It's mechanical parts that are most likely to be affected.
     
    I found this interesting warning in an ADAM manual: "Never expose this product to extremely high or low temperatures. Avoid exposing the speaker's back panel to direct sunlight. Never operate this product in an explosive atmosphere."
     
    Sunlight? I'm guessing they don't want the heatsink getting hot. They also warn against getting close to the speakers when using them at high volumes, and using flammable chemicals to clean them. And here I've been swabbing my cones with gasoline. 


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    #13
    scook
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/08 12:33:01 (permalink)
    Quest does make speaker systems for outdoor use.
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    Bonzos Ghost
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/09 19:51:44 (permalink)
    Going from very cold to hot (if you have hardware that runs hot when on) can cause solder joints to fail. Not that common of a problem but it can happen. I've had to re-solder the odd power supply capacitor twice now in one of my ASR-10 samplers - which runs very hot. Quite a job taking it apart so I could get at them, but not that hard to do really. I'm not an electronics guy by any stretch, but I can solder OK as I've made a lot of cables over the years.
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    SuperG
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/09 20:04:26 (permalink)
    Bonzos Ghost
    Going from very cold to hot (if you have hardware that runs hot when on) can cause solder joints to fail. Not that common of a problem but it can happen. I've had to re-solder the odd power supply capacitor twice now in one of my ASR-10 samplers - which runs very hot. Quite a job taking it apart so I could get at them, but not that hard to do really. I'm not an electronics guy by any stretch, but I can solder OK as I've made a lot of cables over the years.




    I've seen that. Having worked at an electronics mfr - seen lots of tests of devices being shock heated and cooled (mostly industrial mobile devices). Best to let your avg electronic things acclimate for a couple hours before use.
    post edited by SuperG - 2013/12/09 20:05:43

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    gswitz
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/11 12:10:57 (permalink)
    While acclimating, it can be smart to leave them in their cases. I lived in Colorado for a while. A friend brought his guitar in from the car and removed it from the case looking beautiful. After a minuet or two the finish expanding to room temp at a different rate from the body, shattered and cracked like crazy!

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/11 18:53:33 (permalink)
    Yup, you learn that trick when you tour Canada, Alaska and the northern tier states. Guitars stay wrapped until they've had time to warm up. Applies to groupies, too.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    Bonzos Ghost
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/12 18:45:50 (permalink)
    I remember playing clubs waaaay back when during the winter time. Among others things I had an ARP Odyssey that on occasion would go suddenly waaay out of tune if I happened to be setup near an outside door that let in a big blast of cold air. Usually just one oscillator was the culprit, so I could quickly kill it and carry on. The not-so-wonderful side of analog gear. I had to tune up all my gear between each set. Oh…to have had the luxury of digital gear c/w memory presets back in those days!
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    Fog
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    Re: Cold 2013/12/12 22:19:23 (permalink)
    as I have an interest in old 8 bit computers.. a lot use old paper disc caps etc. that *DO* need replacing as they age and you will get a stink and a pop when they eventually do go.. extreme temps e.g. lofts / basements do them no favours.... same goes with vintage electronic stuff that needs re-capping.. and some stuff is probably well known for the PSU going pop because of not being used in 10-30 years.
     
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