Collaborative recording project, how to?

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Gareth
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2012/03/11 07:04:28 (permalink)

Collaborative recording project, how to?

A group of musicians living here in SW France have been considering combining our talents (ha, ha) in the form of a joint recording project via internet (we all live considerable distances apart) What's being proposed is that I write a fairly simple song and record it using my Sonar Studio 8 with 3 tracks; vox, guitar and drums. I'd then put this as a mixed wav file onto SoundCloud. Others can then download this and import into their DAW before adding their own  track, bass, solo gtr etc. This new track will then be emailed to me as a wav file to me imported into the original Sonar mix. This seems very complicated but will, I think, get round the basic problem that people will be using different DAWs. Will it work, has anyone tried doing ot this way?

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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/11 09:01:13 (permalink)
    I do this all the time. I'd suggest not using Soundcloud though because you're quality is limited. What you guys should do is all get drop box. Create an account (all of you) and share a folder where you can drop in the wave files for the project. This way everyone gets the waves and they can get the best quality. When they are done, they upload the new waves and they appear on your pc as well as the drop box folder shares with you and all others in the group.

    The problem fix for all the DAWS: You have two ways you can take care of this.

    1. Make sure everyone uses the same bit and sample rate in their daw.

    a. Make sure each person has the correct beats per minute set up in the song before they import or record any audio as well as the same count-in.

    b. From there, anything that needs to be exported from their daw, needs to be exported as an entire wave from 0:00 to the end of the wave created. This will put some dead space in the intro of the wave. It can be removed once you import it into your DAW. But having it there allows you to drop the wave in at 0:00 and it will automatically be in sync with your project.

    For example, here is the improper way to do it. Say one of your partners here plays a lead guitar solo at 3:12 in the file. When he exports it, it just exports that part of his solo and doesn't include any dead space in the beginning. When you bring that file in, it will be up to you to sync it up properly with the song...and sometimes, this can be a pain in the butt. If he would have exported the wave with dead space in the beginning, you wouldn't have to sync it up. But because he didn't, you have to figure it out now.

    Way 2:

    Repeat section 1 and a. The difference here is, when you export, you can export as a BW which is a Broadcast Wave. A BW is time stamped at the exact spot it was recorded. When you bring this into another DAW, it lines up perfectly to time. It also saves on space because it's just that section...it doesn't need all the dead space in the beginning. So that guy that played the lead guitar solo...if he exports out as a BW, when you import it into Sonar, it will line right up to the song where it needs to be.

    Now, sometimes this method fails. For example, Pro Tools has a tough time with exporting BW's. When you bring in a BW that was created and exported out of PT, 9 times out of 10 when you import that file, it will place it somewhere near the 1 hour mark inside your song. You import it in and wonder why you don't see it. It's there...it's just way out there ----------------------------------------------------------> LOL!

    Zipping utilities: Sharing wave files can be pretty big in size. If you use the latest version of WinZip and make sure all your partners use it, you can use a format they have called .zipx. This format will make a wave file so small, you won't believe there is a wave file zipped up. I use this method religiously with my clients and nothing else out there comes remotely close to what zipx can do. Special thanks to bapu for turning me onto it. :)

    Anyway, I hope some of this helps. Best of luck with your project.

    -Danny
    post edited by Danny Danzi - 2012/03/11 09:03:08

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    Kev999
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/11 23:55:20 (permalink)
    Gareth

    A group of musicians living here in SW France have been considering combining our talents (ha, ha) in the form of a joint recording project via internet (we all live considerable distances apart)...
    There are some musicians' collaboration sites that are primarily intended for the purpose of developing projects, with facilities for uploading and downloading files.  This one may be suitable:

    http://www.indabamusic.com

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    jamesg1213
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/12 12:52:36 (permalink)
    Can't add much to Danny's excellent post, except that; ensure that no-one prints effects to their individual WAV's when they export them. If you're mixing, you need dry tracks, with no panning.

    I've been using Box.net for some years now, very easy for collabs.

     
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    batsbrew
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/12 13:14:11 (permalink)

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    Gareth
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/12 14:01:41 (permalink)
    What a fantastic response, thank you all soooo much! I can see we're on a steep learning curve. Haven't had time yet to absorb all this info but, just a quick question; are you saying that there should be no panning or effects on the original recording of the song? ie the 'guide' tracks

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    jamesg1213
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/12 14:18:05 (permalink)
    Gareth


    What a fantastic response, thank you all soooo much! I can see we're on a steep learning curve. Haven't had time yet to absorb all this info but, just a quick question; are you saying that there should be no panning or effects on the original recording of the song? ie the 'guide' tracks


    No, that doesn't really matter. If they're 'scratch' tracks that will be replaced or re-mixed later, not a problem.

     
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    Truckermusic
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/12 15:50:33 (permalink)
    +1 +1 +1 +1
    To Danny's post.
    I as well use drop box and it is pretty simple.
    But it works.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/12 16:21:15 (permalink)
    Drop Box as suggested by Danny is a good idea. 

    I work slightly differently. In a collab, we generally decide upfront who is going to mix it. So you start with the basic song in whatever format that may be.... the originator of that exports it and converts it to MP3.... this takes all of 15 seconds. That MP3 can then be attached to an email since it is much smaller than a wave. 

    MP3's can be imported into the DAW just as easy as a wave. Be sure everyone knows the song's BPM and sets their tempo accordingly. 

    As each person completes a rough take, they can export their tracks, convert to MP3 and email it to the person mixing the project. When the track is approved, send the waves using other means like send space or drop box. 

    Only the mixer really needs all the waves, unless everyone wants to play the part of the mixer too.


    I worked a collab with someone recently and they insisted on drop box..... let me tell you..... sending 8 wave tracks took a very long time. The UL was very slow to DB..... I sent the files using send space in under half the time. 

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    timidi
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/12 20:32:51 (permalink)
    I've heard/read somewhere that MP3's don't timealign as well as waves. Don't know any more than that.
    Anyone else have any wisdom on this?

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    spacealf
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/12 21:55:34 (permalink)
    Sign up for a free account then no one else knows the link perhaps using this site: http://www.fileswap.com/ might be big enough at I think 100mB.
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    spacealf
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/12 21:59:22 (permalink)
    Ah, it's a 1000mB free account at FileSwap
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    spindlebox
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/13 01:38:07 (permalink)
    Dropbox is great, and I think you get 1-2 GB with a free account, plus when your collaborators install it, you get more!  I'm up to almost 4GB with my free account.

    It can be a bit clunky, but if you're not impatient, it can be an invaluable resource.  But I have a good connection and I use it all the time.

    I recorded 2 albums online this way.  20 songs.  Worked great for me!  I always had them send me 24bit WAV files and didn't worry too much about everything else except spending so much time in my studio I was neglecting my family.  Too much fun.



     

     
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    Sylvan
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/15 20:22:27 (permalink)
    Well, I have a post a few down from here called "What would you do with this?" I have a very small project that is only a live piano that I recorded in some guys house.

    I use ftp, I know it is old technology but it works and there is no size limit at all.

    I do not know why, but my post has been pretty much completely ignored, but it is very similar to your. If you would like to hear the piano I tracked and a shot at mixing it your way simply do this...

    Open your Windows Explorer (or just double-click your My Computer icon)

    In the path at the top, just type ftp.battlefrost.com
    A box will appear asking for user name and password
    The user name I created for this account is: sonar@battlefrost.com
    The password is: !sonar!

    When you accress the project, just copy it to your computer and have at it. Have a look at that text file that is included.

    Thats it, pretty simple.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/16 08:49:08 (permalink)
    timidi


    I've heard/read somewhere that MP3's don't timealign as well as waves. Don't know any more than that.
    Anyone else have any wisdom on this?

    I have swapped MP3 files with 3 or 4 musicians here on the cake forums in various collabs and I have never had a single problem getting them lined up. 


    As long as everyone has the tempo set to the same BPM and everyone uses the same starting point... MP3's should line up perfectly. 


    I normally try to work with 2 measures of count in and the first song beat is measure 3 beat 1.  I import the files and they work perfectly. 


    The only problems I have had is when someone chops the file start time or doesn't record on key or with a click track..... that is more headache than it's worth. I'll send that back. 

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    Philip
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/16 16:18:18 (permalink)
    +1 to all, esp Danny's post.  I've collab'd with faithful artists more than anyone here perhaps.
     
    Much more importantly, IMHO, your collab-artists need to be faithful and diligent (which, as you probably know, is an extreme rarity here and everywhere). 
     
    Unfortunately: So many collab artists here bite off way more than they can chew for vain-glory. 
     
    Fortunately: Great collab artists exist here: Danny (Danziland) and Clifford (TruckerMusic), above, for example, I repeatedly discovered I could fully count on these ... as faithful and diligent collab artists.  (I'm sorry if I missed someone else)
     
    I certainly hope any of you could count on me when I make a collab promise ... please forgive me (all) if/when I fail or forget. :):):)
     
    In Sum,
     
    Most of us prefer to dribble more than co-produce.  You'll come to find out who your true collab workers REALLY are!  Like true friends, they rarely exist!  Hahahaha!  Good luck on that!  Hope this helps.
    post edited by Philip - 2012/03/16 17:15:27

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    LpMike75
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/17 01:58:26 (permalink)
    timidi


    I've heard/read somewhere that MP3's don't timealign as well as waves. Don't know any more than that.
    Anyone else have any wisdom on this?

    MP3's encode info at the start, if you zoom in you can see it..  To get around this just set up a click or hit on your first beat then manually line it up in your timeline. 
     
    I have collabed on projects with MP3's by creating a master MP3 with a stick hit on measure 2 so everyone can align it easy.  Everyone records their part and emails (or dropbox) only the wave file of their part back to the mixer.  It works out well.
     
    On another note, a forum member here helped me out with a mix and I was able to fit the whole bundle file in a free DropBox folder to him. 
     
    The internet is a godsend for collaberation.


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    Gareth
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/20 05:07:53 (permalink)
    Thanks again for all that useful info. I've got as far as putting the bare bones into dropbox (vox, k/bds, drums) If you have a minute please give it a listen and feel free to collab! I've got someone working on replacing the drum track but nothing else so far. Its at:  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67033463/Movin'%20To%20The%20Country.wav

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    UbiquitousBubba
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    Re:Collaborative recording project, how to? 2012/03/22 16:30:13 (permalink)
    The only other suggestion I can offer is non-technical.  (I'm also echoing something Guitarhacker said...)  Settle your musical direction and roles up front.  As the projects drag on longer than expected, the collab team may want to change musical direction as their interests change.  If roles are not clearly settled in the beginning, you can very easily end up with "Too many cooks" arguing endlessly over every decision.  Arguments over mixes, effects, production values, etc. can stall your project like you would not believe.

    In my opinion, each project should have one "Producer" who is the final authority on any and all disagreements regarding the writing, arranging, tracking, mixing and publication of the finished product.  Without this agreement at the outset even between good friends, I've seen numerous collabs fail.

    I've never seen a collab completely fail due to technology.  Those things can be worked out. 
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