Comp numbering confusion?

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amiller
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2013/10/18 15:52:22 (permalink)

Comp numbering confusion?

I'm really dig'n the new/revamped comp recording feature.  I am seeing some unusual stuff though...at least to me.  Even though I always record with comp mode on sometimes the take lanes get numbered from high to low and sometimes low to high.  It was my understanding that the new comp mode would number and list the takes from high to low starting at the top?  I also see the comp lanes get sliced up into phrases without me doing it.  Sometimes the lanes are just "pre" sliced?

RAWK!!!

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    stevec
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/18 16:13:17 (permalink)
    If you're just loop recording or even stop/starting and recording a new pass each time, then yes, the lanes should be numbered 1-n from bottom up so the newest take is on top.  The only way I've seen anything diferent is if I manually add or delete lanes.
     
    But I've never come across any type of "pre-slicing".   Only if I comp or splt clips will that happen.
     

    SteveC
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    #2
    brundlefly
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/18 16:20:18 (permalink)
    I haven't seen a problem with lane or take numbering, either; most recent take is always at the top, and always the highest numbered lane, though take numbers in clips start over when a new recording is made after stopping the transport.
     
    The one case in which you will get "pre-slicing" is when stopping the transport part way into the next take (whether looping or by manually recording another pass). The previous take(s) will get split at the end of the partial take, and the overlapping part of the previous take will be muted. All you have to do is delete that last partial take lane (assuming you don't want it), and swipe through the previous clip with the comp tool to "heal" the split(s), and unmute the previously muted section.

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    #3
    stevec
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/18 16:27:17 (permalink)
    Ah yes, the "left-overs".  

    SteveC
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    neirbod
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/19 16:20:07 (permalink)
    I just had a session today and also experienced takes being put down in apparently random order.  It happened on more than one song.  If there is a pattern to it I have not found it yet.  Could be a bug, or just some odd but logical "feature" I have not yet figured out.  Certainly not what I want to see happen.
    #5
    amiller
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/19 17:32:28 (permalink)
    Yeah, it's very strange.  Today, I had a loop set and recorded about 10 takes with comp on.  The takes were labeled "1" to "10" from top to bottom.  I remember thinking that's not what I was expecting.  Anyway, I undid the recording and started again.  I got the same numbering results.  I went through the same process one more time and SONAR numbered the takes "10" to "1" from top to bottom.  It really doesn't bother me that much but I do have to check each time to be sure I know which order the takes are in.  If this is not a bug than I clearly don't have a handle on how comp is working.

    RAWK!!!

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    neirbod
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/22 07:51:25 (permalink)
    It gets stranger. I just noticed a twist on one song where I recorded an acoustic guitar in XY. Each mic is on its own track called either "mic A" or "mic B" and there are multiple takes.  See the attached screenshot.  Note I did delete some takes which is why there is no take 1 for example. Of the takes I did keep I did not move anything around.  You'll see for mic A the takes are the order one would expect.  But for mic B the takes are in the order 7-5-4-6.  I really seems like a bug, albeit an intermittent one.  I have seen it on other songs but I only noticed later at mixing so I can't recall the specific order of events I used.  When I tried a few times to recreate it I have not been able to.
     
    Note - to see the full size version right click and select "open in new tab"
     
    I will send the screen shot to Cakewalk's problem reporting system in the hopes that it helps identify the problem
     

    #7
    amiller
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/22 14:01:34 (permalink)
    Yeah, I think this is a bug also.  I was recording using comp the other day for most of the day.  The numbering order was randomly flip flopping throughout the session.  I could not determine a pattern...'seemed totally random.

    RAWK!!!

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    stevec
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/22 15:07:00 (permalink)
    Weird...  I haven't come across any random lane numbering... yet.
     

    SteveC
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    #9
    amiller
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/22 16:41:36 (permalink)
    stevec
    Weird...  I haven't come across any random lane numbering... yet.
     




    Well, it's not that the lane numbering is random it's that the ascending and descending order is random.  For instance, 1-10 in one loop recording session and then 10-1 in another session.  I cannot predict which way the order is going to be from session to session.

    RAWK!!!

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    stevec
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/22 17:56:40 (permalink)
    Yeah, that was my not very well worded meaning for "random".  
     
    I've only ever seen low to high as each take lane is stacked on the next.  Obviously there's some catalyst for it, just nothing I've run into.   Either that, or I have tracks in this state that I just haven't expanded!
     
    I am curious though... when the lanes are numbered in reverse, is the latest take still on top, despite it's number?

    SteveC
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    #11
    Silicon Audio
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/22 18:39:49 (permalink)
    I am finding putting region based effects on a lane causes all the other takes in the selected area to disappear and the new region edited clip to occupy the bottom (oldest) lane.  I discovered this by accident, because the first lane was a guide vocal and I had subsequently muted that lane.  When I created the a region based Melodyne edit, I could not hear the vocal anymore and that's when I expanded out the lanes and saw the problem.  I would have either expected that the melodyne clip should have stayed on the layer it was being applied to, or created a new lane - not re-use the original take lane.
     
    So, while the layers are much better in X3, there are indeed still some strange quirks.

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    brundlefly
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/22 19:29:00 (permalink)
    stevec
     curious though... when the lanes are numbered in reverse, is the latest take still on top, despite it's number?



     
    Based on what he's shown and said so far, it appears to me that the lanes are numbered correctly according to the take order, but the lanes are not placed consistently descending order according to those numbers.
     
    The only way I've been able to get lanes out of order like this is by deleting and then undoing the delete. When you undelete a lane, it gets restored one position higher in the stack. And if you delete and undelete several, they'll maintain their descending order, but will all be above the lane that they were previously below. This works fine if you delete takes from the top down, and then decided to restore them, but things get weird otherwise. In a perfect world, I think lanes would have an immutable position index so they would always restore to their original order. This might incidentally squash whatever bug is causing this faulty ordering.
     
    I'm wondering if some if this might have to do with opening old projects in X3.

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    amiller
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/22 21:16:57 (permalink)
    This is indeed an X2 project that I've moved to X3b.  It was about 1/2 done in X2. 
     
    I use "comp" two different ways.  I use it to help write and develop new lead sections and then I'll use it to get the "keeper" tracks.  I was in the write and develop stage in X3b when I noticed the comp numbering issue.  The way I write and develop is to put a track in loop mode and start laying down ideas for a lead section.  Normally, I record about 10 to 20 takes to see if something bubbles up that I like.  Then I'll hit undo recording, which removes all takes, and I'll start refining the lead ideas.  The process continues until I've got some pretty solid lead ideas and then I'll set up as session specifically to get the keeper tracks.  So, during the write and develop stage I do not delete individual takes.  Instead, I undo the whole session so that I can start again building on the previous ideas...mentally.

    RAWK!!!

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    neirbod
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/22 21:32:19 (permalink)
    brundlefly
    Based on what he's shown and said so far, it appears to me that the lanes are numbered correctly according to the take order, but the lanes are not placed consistently descending order according to those numbers.



    This is indeed my experience
     
    brundlefly
    I'm wondering if some if this might have to do with opening old projects in X3.

     
    Possibly.  The two songs on which I have noticed problems were both initiated in earlier versions of Sonar.
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    stevec
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/22 23:08:58 (permalink)
    Interesting...   I haven't done any comping in pre-X3 projects, and also haven't seen any mis-numbered lanes.   So perhaps there's something to Dave's suggestion that the version where the project originated is a factor...
     

    SteveC
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    amiller
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/23 10:18:28 (permalink)
    stevec
    Interesting...   I haven't done any comping in pre-X3 projects, and also haven't seen any mis-numbered lanes.   So perhaps there's something to Dave's suggestion that the version where the project originated is a factor...
     




    Well, that will be easy enough to test.  I'll give it a shot later today.

    RAWK!!!

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    stevec
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/23 12:26:04 (permalink)
    Cool, I'm certainly curious to see what happens!
     

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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/10/23 15:03:19 (permalink)
    I've seen this once as well. Can't reproduce it. I even the session with takes 1 -10 starting at 1 going down to 10 and takes 11 - 18 from 18 going down so takes 18 and 1 were next to each other. I was loop recording whether that's relevant or not but I couldn't reproduce it in the same project or since.
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    neirbod
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/11/18 11:25:21 (permalink)
    Just got through with a new session and this issue not only popped up, it got much much worse.  This is a project I started in X2a, not sure it this is a factor or not.
     
    I was recording three harmony parts at one, each to its own track.  We punched in an average of 8 times each at 6 different parts of the song, for around 50 takes total takes per track.  Things seemed to go smoothly until I tried to edit the various takes down to one or two "keepers" per section for further work.  The symptoms are:
     
    1) takes out of order as described above.  One chunk will be in descending order, and then another chunk in ascending order.  Total of around 4-5 "chunks" in various orders, with a few random stragglers thrown in for god measure (e.g., take #24 down at the bottom while 20-23 and 25-28 are all above).
     
    2) even better, there are multiple takes that are doubled.  The clips are not doubled, but there are e.g. two takes #16 one with a clip and one without
     
    3) dragging clips around to clean them up results in frequent random behavior that seems related to the take doubling noted above.  Sometimes moving a clip to an empty spot on e.g. take #16 results in it seeming  to disappear. I noticed this in X2a as well and had thought it was fixed in X3.  Perhaps a new twist, or at least I only just noticed, is that I can sometimes find the clip at the *other* take 16.  
     
    4) more than one clip on some takes.  Given the way we recorded this should not have happened.
     
    In short, this was a major mess that took me a long time to try to partially fix out so I could recreate usable tracks.  I did not notice anything like this on other projects, but I never had this many takes before.  I am curious if anyone else uses this many takes and what your experience has been.
     
    I already sent a bug report about the track order issue and they responded it was being investigated. I will follow up with this additional info.
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    neirbod
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/11/19 17:17:15 (permalink)
    Just got an email to my bug reporter from a few weeks ago that the take order issue is "Submitted to Development."  Hopefully this will address my more recent, and more troubling, issues as well.
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    amiller
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/11/19 19:25:05 (permalink)
    neirbod
    Just got an email to my bug reporter from a few weeks ago that the take order issue is "Submitted to Development."  Hopefully this will address my more recent, and more troubling, issues as well.



    Great!   Maybe it will be fixed in ... X3d.

    RAWK!!!

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    rebel007
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    Re: Comp numbering confusion? 2013/11/20 16:38:18 (permalink)
    I had an issue with a vocal track I recorded in a new project with X3b. I was recording with two different Mics and recorded five separate passes, stopping between each pass, then hitting record again for the next pass.
    When I opened up the take lanes, one of the Mics had lanes labelled 1 to 5, and the other had lanes labelled 1 to 6. I am thinking "where did that other track come from" and "what is on it"?
    Turns out there was just some garbled, noisy, rubbish that I couldn't understand on lane 1. I had to re-number all the tracks on that Mic, and delete the rubbish lane, so they matched the numbering of the lanes on the other Mic.
    Has only happened the one time, so I thought maybe I'd done something that had caused this to occur. I did hit ctrl-z a couple of times on false starts so maybe that where it comes from.
    #23
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