Compression... 4:1 Ratio with 6db of reduction as starting point for n00bs?

YIKES.
 
well, 
on a master bus,
i can hear 1:25 to 1 ratio.....
 
so 4:1 seems overly aggressive......
except...
 
if the intention is to 'OVERCOMPRESS'..... as part of a learning cycle.
 
it is easier to hear the effect of the compression with levels like that...
but WTF?
 
why are levels going in so out of whack to being with?
unless it's an orchestra or something........?
 

i just think for a NOOB, 
that is just way too much.
 
bottom line:
 
it all depends on the source,
and what your end goal is.
 
 
 

Perhaps the time period the tut was created is relevant. I think that vid was made in the early 90's (perhaps late 80's) and there was absolutely no discussion about DAWs or VST plugins (all hardware).
 
Maybe it was intended for input compression? Just the common settings of the time period?
 
I appreciate the insight, bats.
 
Cheers.

As always I am extremely happy to see and receive such great input from some of the posters I hold in high esteem. Sorry for the late reply but have been trying to hammer out some really crazy solos today. Gotta let my hands cool down a bit (kind of awkward to type now... lol).
 
It does kind of make sense that perhaps that 4:1 recommendation might have been more to allow newbs to hear it a little without crushing things or maybe a "Go up or down from there".
 
Personally I think I've moved beyond that but only because of Danny's previous advice (in other threads) about managing the frequencies that hit the compressors via an EQ.
 
I'm in a bit of a crummy situation where a lot of my signals are not so even because I do not have any real outboard input management for the bulk of the signals I deal with daily. Well I do but I am unhappy with it and am working on other solutions but that's another topic.
 
So dealing with raw input via my interface (without outboard compression) there are the expected fluctuations that generally need to be handled. I deal with this in the performance as much as I can but that can be a little stifling (and time consuming).
 
Point is what I have been trying to do is level things with one compressor to even things out to get a nice, even, strong signal (which would normally be done with proper outboard gear) then I feed it through the EQ and THEN let it hit a second compressor for the actual mix compression.
 
It's all still rather chaotic and not exactly how I want to manage this stuff (and I do kind of know better at this point) but for the past 6 months or so I've actually been in "artist/session/tracking" mode so my mixing experimentation has been relegated to just quick little screw arounds just to send off samples to people or listen back to my work in the context of what it MAY sound like in a REAL mix.
 
Mostly I saw that 4:1/-6db thing and thought maybe I should start working backwards from that but seeing what you guys are posting... well I may already be beyond that anyway. I'm in year 3 of dealing with compressors and it is funny seeing you guys talk about "year 5" being when people start to actually HEAR what's going on with the buggers. I think I am just barely starting to really hear things (whereas before it really was a... "wtf is this thing supposed to be doing?" scenario). I can definitely hear the attack/release stuff making changes now and KIND of hear some of the ratio and threshold stuff (kind of). All of it does seem to be dependent on whether I'm running it all thorugh/basing it on EQ settings (that I definitely hear... so thanks for that Danny).
 
Really I was just leaning on the CA2A as a "set it and forget" compressor up until recently because it was honestly the ONLY compressor that I seemed to be able to operate and that made things sound better. I love it for that. I'd put it after my EQ (again based on Danny's advice about only letting what you WANT to be compressed get through to the compressor).
 
However I don't think I even like the CA2A as much anymore now that I'm getting a LITTLE more used to all this. It's like a nice bit of light sparkle and I think I'm using it more as kind of an exciter/drive effect than an actual compressor.
 
What I intend to do next in my quest to understand compressors is start using the Sonitus Compressor and the Sonitus Multiband. I have consistently heard so many great things about these compressors and I have always been fascinated by them. Now that I understand the "math" and logic behind this stuff a little more I figure I should use something dry, flexible and transparent like the Sonitus stuff (I want to really give the Delay and Modulation plugs a workout too).
 
I think the Sonitus Multiband might help me really understand all that stuff Danny keeps talking about in regards to how you want to be very careful which frequencies are being compressed in a signal.
 
Obviously the intent there is to likely EQ things before it hits a compressor but there does seem to be a convenience in the Sonitus Multi where I could simply see how compression applies itself to specific freqs of the instruments I normally use. I can move the bands around, mess with the thresh/ratio or whatever and get maybe a better impression of those concepts the have an idea of what I should be going for with my pre comp EQing.
 
Meh... guess that's a rant and a half but this has been helpful. When I actually have access to Ratio I usually use 2:1 and start with the lowest reduction possible then go from there. I just heard the guy say that and though maybe I should think a little different as I learn in regards to compressors.
 
 
Cheeeeers!

Here's the other side of the coin beeps....
 
There are several that don't use any compression or outboard comps. This is the good part of what we have today being non-destructive. You can peak at say -6 dB going in like me....and average -12 to -8 dB and still be in good shape so you can process later. Just remember, the whole outboard thing is for coloration that 8 out of 10 times, I sincerely do not feel makes enough of a % to marry. Before I got my Midas (shhh, you never heard me say this lol) I use to use these Behringer rack comps. 2600 is the model I believe.....
 
Something about those stupid comps made a difference for the better in my guitar tones and vocals going to disc. I barely even touched them....2:1 ratio taking out -2 dB tops with -1 being the average gain reduced. You can barely notice that, but I knew when I used them dumb comps and when I didn't. Plus the wave form looked better with them on than without. I'm a stickler for a decent looking wave form even though you can't hold much stock in that either.
 
If I were you, I'd run the comp first in line. This way the eq doesn't mess with it and you are comping first. The only time I run a comp after an eq is on a problem instrument that may need a little extra reinforcement. Sometimes a comp after an eq on a bass just helps the tone and makes it sound better. Sometimes it will help a guitar also, but because we process guitars so much more, you have to be careful because when the comp is later in the chain, all the stuff before it will help to dictate how it reacts. So I try to keep it first.
 
As for as the CA2A, it's a great comp for you and you should be able to get away with using it without a hitch. Some of the best songs ever released had it on them. Here's what I want you to try. Set it so that the nastiest part of your guitar makes the comp level take out -2 dB of gain. Then turn the comp off and on. Set the comp level so that you can't hear a difference when the comp is on or off. Though that is not doing much, it's doing enough...trust me. If you feel the need to increase the compression, do so...but try not to go over -3 dB. It's rare that a good guitar sound will need more than -3 dB removed. See how you fair on that.
 
With bass, depending on your bass, the sound, your execution of the instrument, whether you use a pick or fingers, thickness of pick if one is used, (I use felt picks...they are the closest to fingers since I can't play with my fingers) and set the ca2a to remove -4 dB of gain. Match the level of the comp by turning it off and on and match it to where you hear no volume difference. This should give you a really good starting point. From there mess around with increasing and decreaing the compression to hear the effects of it. Right where I told you should be close to your sweet spot.
 
Now, if you're going for a super loud "current" type of sound, you're going to want to squash more to keep things tighter. In this scenario, you can compress as much as you want until you hear the instrument get loud then low. That's pumping and breathing and when you hear that, you're pushing things too hard. It will be easier to achieve this with the Ca2A because it has no attack, release or ratio control. You can control that artifact with a compression that has those extra controls.
 
One of the best compressors I have ever used is the bus compressor that comes in Sonar. Don't let that "bus" thing fool you. That is a serious compressor and I'd put it up against the SSL comp by Waves and many others. I use that comp more and more these days. It really has a nice sound and can be used on just about anything. It can compress, and can also affect like a transient shaper which is really nice because you have more control.
 
In my opinion, your biggest issue may be you don't know what you're supposed to settle for in a compressor. What is considered right when sometimes you can't hear enough of the effect to make a decision, am I right? I'll try to explain it to where you'll get it....
 
Say we have a circular piece of plastic. We stick a little play dough in the circle and press it out to flatten it and make it even and keep at it until it starts to spread over the edge of the circle kinda like it's over-flowing. Call that stuff that is just over the edge, an uncompressed sound. Now, take that little bit that is over the edge, and cut it away with a utility knife. You may not have cut away much, but we just compressed the play dough to where it is no longer leaking out over the edge. We didn't go crazy because we had to just trim it a little...which in reality, would be like a -2dB reduction. It's subtle but winds up working because of what is NO longer over-flowing and making our mix loose, understand?
 
Now take that same circle and drop in a huge wad of play dough. Pressed on it to flatten it, it's going to REALLY go outside our circular disc. In this situation, you'll need to cut away more excess to tighten that particular wad up....which is liek us compressing a bit heavier, get it now?
 
The key is to know when we have to compress more and when to compress just enough as well as choosing the right compressor for the job. Quick example, with light compression on my rhythm guitars individually, I also send them to a bus and compress them as an entity too. Not much, but I have to treat them as a group so a little more compression isn't a bad thing IF it's needed. Could I compress them a little more individually? Yeah, but I'm busing them and need to treat them as a unit in that particular situation.
 
You just have to keep on experimenting and trying to hear the differences. Unfortunately, when you are using a comp the right way, you don't hear it working which is what makes it one of the hardest effects to learn. That said, even when used subtly, when you remove it and listen to the same mix, you'll notice something is missing and not quite right. You'll hear some parts in your face, other parts a bit buried. This is what the compressor also helps with. As it evens things, it literally keeps them in the mix at all times. Without the comp, you'll notice some "in and out" stuff which is what you don't want unless you're automating it to do that. :) You'll get it...I have faith! :)
 
-Danny

Awesome topic and discussion, thanks

get one decent outboard compressor.
 
my vote,
for across the board purpose,
 
would be a FMR RNC
 
http://www.fmraudio.com/rnc.html

I am resisting assimilation.....

Wanna play toppers?
64, retired,  Navy Viet Nam vet, Agent Orange compensation(just diabetes type 2, well under control)...
 
I dunno that's about all I got, other than I play bass and rhythm guitar!
 
altho......
 
 
 I once made a  base line 3 pointer at the Forum during a pickup game after a Boston-LA game. The refs would shoot around during timeouts but couldn't make a thing. I was about 3 sheets to the wind, and started yelling BRICK after they shot. One of them waved at me to come down(we were close to the floor as most fans were long gone) and do better. So, I headed on down, tripped over a chair, and ended up on the base line. Ref threw me the pass as I was setting up in the corner. Not a clean swish but through the net! Got a nice ovation from the few in the crowd, and a high five from the ref. 
 
 
But I digress, and in full disclosure, I'm just messin around!
 

charlyg
Wanna play toppers?
64, retired,  Navy Viet Nam vet, Agent Orange compensation(just diabetes type 2, well under control)...

We could do with some of that compensation over here. Good to see a number of Vets return here regularly to positive work. It's still in the groundwater around the Airport apparently. My school does a a number of activities to help those affected.

batsbrew
get one decent outboard compressor.
 
my vote,
for across the board purpose,
 
would be a FMR RNC
 
http://www.fmraudio.com/rnc.html

Thank you for pointing that out. I am just a part time hobbyist but always wanted an outboard compressor. I like the price. I have read up on it and they said it is not good for bass. I think they said it was too slow?

Yeah, leveling is the only area of mistakes it can "correct".  The phrase " apparent loudness" is the most impressive thing about them for me. To be able to bring a part into the mix without crowding other elements is the best reward of learning to use compression and limiting.
 
@ kamikaze     There really is no compensation for the impact of war. Perhaps, now with the internet and so many amazing documentaries being made, people can begin to understand the scope of war's aftermath.
 
Michael
 
 

Yeah, that is what the PC76 U-Type is. Universal Audio =the U.