Helpful ReplyComputer advice needed

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Enzstudios
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2016/09/05 20:26:47 (permalink)

Computer advice needed

Well it’s been a long time coming, and I have decided to build another Studio DAW PC. The Computer I have been using has finally come to an end because I cannot update it and it just can’t cope with all the new processors of Sonar Platinum. I have bought the Program and I installed it my Old system to see if it could handle the new program, it can handle it but the Old girl is slow (really slow). So I am now after some input from fellow Sonar users that may be able to either help me out or guide me in the right direction. I have spent a lot of time reading different forums, on the world wide Webb and sometimes it just gets dam confusing. OK so to stop my rambling I will start by tell you the gear I plan to get. OH and by the way I am pretty computer savvy.

PARTS LIST:
Good quality Quiet Case with “Be Quiet” Fans
M/B: ASRock Z170 Extreme4 (I’m hoping this M/B is OK, it has really good reviews and ready for future upgrades)
CPU: Intel Core i7 6700K (could be over kill LOL)
CPU Fan: Be Quiet! Shadow Rock Slim CPU Cooler (Not interested in water cooler)
RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series F4-2400C15Q-32GVR 32GB (4x8GB) DDR4
PSU: Antec "EDGE" 750W 80 PLUS Gold, 100% Fully Modular
Video: Gigabyte GEFORCE GT740 (I already have, and I have 2 monitors as well)
Windows Hard Drive: Intel 540s Series 240GB SSD
Program Hard Drive: Samsung 750 EVO 500GB SSD
Third Hard Drive for plugins, Etc: WD Black 2TB 3.5" 7200 64MB Cache SATA - WD2003FZEX

I will also install 2 additional hard drives as well copied from my Old PC these hold my old projects. I also have a NAS system for backup.

I have Windows 7 64bit and Windows 10 64bit I thought I would go with Windows 10.
This Computer will not be on the internet and I plan to run my Old PC (Sonarx3) side by side with the new one for a while until I can make sure that everything works how it should and I get used to Platinum. I have an M-Audio FireWire 410 Break-out box and a new PICE FireWire card to put in the new PC, for play black only as I have a Behringer X32 rack unit that I use live, and then connect to the PC when working on Live and studio recordings. I do use several 3rd party VST plug-ins which I plan to ween myself off once I get to working with Sonar Platinum. As I do have a budget to work with I can’t spend too much more and I think I have chosen to right parts for the job, but if anyone would like to suggest alternatives feel free thanks.

OK now for some Q’s
1st - Because I have not installed Windows 10 before and there are sooo many different opinions. When installing Win10 is there anything I should do to any settings, start-up or the registry, to make it run smooth and have no latency for my DAW system?
 
2nd – Have I chosen the best path with the Hard drives by installing Win10 on a single hard drive, and then installing all other programs and VST’s to a secondary Hard drive in their own folders and the VST’s in one complete folder on the same Hard drive?
Note: The 3rd Hard WD 2TB is for holding all the sound fonts for instrument plug-ins, Is this correct?

3rd - I have search the Webb for some sort of video tutorial on the correct install procedure for both Windows and Sonar Platinum but there doesn’t seem to be much around does anyone know of any?
 
Thanks in Advance 
#1
Maarkr
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/05 22:51:45 (permalink)
1.  just install W10 and later make some tweaks
2. I would install the OS and programs on a 500Gb drive... trying to do progs on a separate drive would be crazy IMO.  I have many plugs installed on the C drive and larger ones on my D drive.  Many Cake plugs are easiest to manage in the Cake directories.
3. Don't have a quick link for installation, but I recommend loading the latest W10 install on a USB drive.
If your sound interface is firewire, you may consider a mobo w built-in firewire... not so common anymore.
Is your PSU a 'quiet' one?
 
lots of stuff to consider on a new build and I don't have an hour to go into everything... look on the Windows 10 forum   http://www.tenforums.com/   and on Toms Hardware forum for specific answers.

Maarkr
Studio: SPALT Lifetime/BL Cakewalk, Studio One 3.5, UAD, Z3ta+2, IKM, NI, Waves, iZotope, Melda, Reaper
i7 3770/Giga Z77 mobo, Win10 Pro-64 w16Gb, MOTU Ultralite MK4, Yamaha HS80M wSub, Live: PX-5S, FA-06, Roland Lucina, Epi Les Paul, Ibanez Bass, Amps, e-drums, Zoom R-16...
Latest album release, NEW! Counry Classic at http://genemaarkr.bandcamp.com/
#2
Enzstudios
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/07 04:31:51 (permalink)
Thanks for the reply, I am considering what you have said about the Hard drive scenario. I would like some sort of come back about the  M/B: ASRock Z170 Extreme4 and if anyone else has use it for a DAW PC or if there is a better one within the price range.
 
Thanks Again 
#3
bitflipper
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/07 11:02:07 (permalink)
Do you use sampled instruments? Do you use microphones in close proximity to the computer? These considerations will affect your component decisions.
 
There are "whisper quiet" cases and power supplies, and even water-cooled silent cases, but they're considerably more expensive and may be unnecessary. As long as your room is large enough that you can put some acoustical absorption between your mic and computer, and angle the mic so the computer is behind its dead zone, an ordinary desktop case/PSU will probably be fine.
 
Large amounts of RAM are only necessary if you use sampled virtual instruments. You'll only need 8GB for SONAR and audio-only or audio + software synthesizers, but if you're doing multiple large Kontakt libraries then 16GB should be considered the minimum. 32GB is not overkill if you do orchestral stuff.
 
An SSD is also a nice addition if you use sample libraries. Some folks like to use an SSD for the O/S, but that seems like a waste of money to me. I can wait 10 more seconds for Windows to boot, and even with an SSD you're still going to want to move your paging device to a conventional drive. But for sample libraries, it's well-worth the expense.
 
After you've compiled your parts list, I'd suggest comparing the cost to an equivalent system from Jim Roseberry. You might be surprised how little more it'll cost you for a DAW built by an expert. Unfortunately, I figured that out after ordering a custom build from another seller. Their price was only $150 less and I'll never be able to call them about audio-related issues. Even if I'd built it myself, as I've done with most of my past computers, the savings would have only been around $200.
 
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#4
tlw
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/07 12:29:51 (permalink)
bitflipper
An SSD is also a nice addition if you use sample libraries. Some folks like to use an SSD for the O/S, but that seems like a waste of money to me. I can wait 10 more seconds for Windows to boot, and even with an SSD you're still going to want to move your paging device to a conventional drive. But for sample libraries, it's well-worth the expense.
 


Moving the swap file alone to try and extend drive life would be fairly pointless unless you also move the registry, all the temp files and quite a bit of what lives in App Data. All get frequently written to.

Losing the speed advantage of an SSD by moving swap etc. off it mught mean you get more life out of a drive. But very little. Modern SSDs aren't exactly dying in droves or generating lots of warranty claims in laptop PCs or MacBooks that come with them, it seems real-world experience indicates much of the early hoo-hah about SSD life maybe should be taken with a pinch of salt. The drive is likely to become technologically obselete or fall far enough behind newer devices to justify replacemant before it wears out.

For me, HDDs win in terms of bulk storage such as backups, multimedia file collections, photos and huge databases where speed of access isn't as much of an issue as Gigabytes per buck. For a system that responds very quickly and smoothly, with no hiccups during swapping etc. SSDs work very well for the system drive, and, as you say, also make a big difference with big sample libraries or other data where rapid access really makes a difference such as Photoshop's application-defined location for its swap/temp files that get accessed all the time.

SSDs also draw very little power and are silent. They also withstand physical shock far better than HDDs, which is particularly useful in laptops. Personally I'd go for a system SSD unless budgetary constraints said otherwise.

"Hybrid" drives however, I'm more cautious of. I can see a use for them on a "conventional" computer (i.e. one that isn't something strange and specialist such as a DAW or video-editing workstation) but there have been reports from time to time of them causing dropouts in low latency audio. The early Apple hybrids seem to have been particularly prone to this.

Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
#5
Enzstudios
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/07 19:56:48 (permalink)
Thanks for the responses very interesting stuff, keep them coming.
My knowledge is pretty good when it comes to putting computers together and I am mainly going to build this DAW system because my OLD system is out dated and cannot be change anymore, so you might say a personal project. I have had my OLD system for around 18years. Before I sold my Admin Network computer business I built it from scratch including a fully customizable mother board it took me nearly 12months to build and source all the parts that I needed but I ended up with a very powerful Beast that I could even put my own badge on and add more parts to (VERY HAPPY :) ).
Now I have fallen behind the eight ball with some of the techy stuff an just really after advice on what is the best way to install Win10, OH and yes I know about paging files, registries and windows searching and several programs running in the background etc... They are still part of the Old world systems back in the day.
Things have change a lot with hard drives cause we would always just install windows on C-drive and progams on E-drive (D-drive being for CD-Drive LOL), and then have a DATA Drive for all Documents etc...Back in the day it was always the more RAM you had the better. As I do use a lot of virtual instruments and hungry synths, I figure I would still go with 32gig apposed to 16gig RAM.
Interesting you should bring up about Hybrid drives cause I have a Seagate Momentus XT 750gig in the OLD PC which got updated to GEN2 when they first came out and it has and still is serving me well, and I was thinking of using Seagate ST2000DX001 Desktop SSHD 2TB for the sample libaries and Sonar folders ect... in the NEW DAW PC, basically because of it's size a cost. But I bought the WD Black 2tb for very very cheap around $50 Australian, so I was going to use this for all the Folder stuff within Sonar and the Windows Folders and also put the sample libraries on.
So now for a new work around, How does this sound?
C-Drive 500gig SSD : Windows 10 and programs including VST and plug ins - I already have a Samsung 750 EVO 500GB SSD which I can use
D-Drive Maybe get another 500gig SSD for the sample libraries this should be enough for what I use
E-Drive DATA - I already have the WD Black 2TB which I could put the Sonar Folders, Windows Folders and also the Pageing file onto
G and H-Drive would be my OLD Project files and some Short term Backups
Still waiting on a comment on the Mother Board  ASRock Z170 Extreme4
 
My Room is pretty big in size and has been fully acoustically treated, yes I use Mics and an Electric drum kit Roland TD30 and Bass Guitar and electric Guitar.
The PC Case has been custom Built by me just for this project, the power supply has been modified by me just for this project.
 
As far as checking with JIM yep I'm open for a quote but don't know if I would be able to get it sent to Australia.
 
As stated not really keen on water cool
Some theory facts - Water cooling apposed to direct fan 
Direct Fan- Cheaper than water Cool. As long as the proper Parts have been use and the system is looked after, and all the calculations are done for air flow and heat dispersion the fan can out last a water cooler (depending on how the water or fluid system is done)
Water cooling - Expensive, still has Fans for radiator, water pump can be very annoying and if not checked regularly can be a down fall and cost you a new rebuild. Water and or Fluid can go stale and may need refilling from time to time.
You can properly see in those statements, for water cooling, yes I have had a very very bad experience with water and fluid systems.
 
Parts List of items I already have:
Case
PSU
WD Black 2tb H/D
500gig SSD
Video: Gigabyte GEFORCE GT740
CPU Fan
 
Parts still to get:
CPU
M/B
RAM
Extra SSD's or Hard Drives
 
Again I would like to thank you all so much 
#6
timidi
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/07 22:09:59 (permalink)
Fanless video card?

ASUS P8P67, i7-2600K, CORSAIR 16GB, HIS 5450, 3 Samsung SSD 850, Win7 64, RME AIO.
 
https://timbowman.bandcamp.com/releases
 
#7
Enzstudios
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/07 23:44:17 (permalink)
LOL yes Fanless video crad
#8
bitflipper
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/09 22:07:22 (permalink)
Regarding SSD lifespan as the O/S drive; I guess I'm going to find out.
 
My new computer came with a 500 GB SSD as ordered, but the builder installed Windows on it rather than leaving it empty for my sample libraries, contrary to my instructions. So I cloned the SSD to the second hard drive and swapped them. Aargh! It was so frickin' slow by comparison that I put it back the way it was and decided to buy another SSD for samples. I can picture tlw shaking his head and saying "I told you so".


I did move my paging device to the D: drive, though. I don't think there'll be much of a performance hit for doing so, since my pf/s numbers are low. I don't think I'll bother moving the registry or the AppData tree, as those are unlikely to ever grow to a significant percentage of drive space. I will, however, be more diligent in backing up the registry - onto the D: drive. I just can't bring myself to trust SSDs yet. 
 
Oh, I'm aware that many devices rely 100% on SSDs. In fact, this isn't the only SSD in my studio. My synthesizer has an SSD in it and it holds everything - samples are streamed from it. Of course, I won't be writing to it often, but it still makes me nervous as restoring a backup onstage is not a pleasant thought. Or worse, having to do an emergency drive swap and restore. Fingers crossed. Hope you're right about your confidence in SSDs, tlw.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#9
abacab
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/09 22:23:56 (permalink)
Or consider no paging file.
 
RAM is faster than SSD.  If you have enough RAM, your PC doesn't need to swap, right?
 
IMHO, SSD is the way to roll now, except for backup and archiving drives.  The performance boost is whiplash inducing.
 
And the last time I checked, the Intel HD graphics was fanless and silent.  You only need a graphics accelerator if you plan to build a gaming rig.  The i7-6700K can support up to 3 monitors at 4k.
post edited by abacab - 2016/09/09 22:56:42

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#10
Enzstudios
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/10 07:33:07 (permalink)
Thanks again for your replies
I rather use (Old School Approach) a separate video card so not to use the system ram, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Ia m still undecided as to use the Mother Board I have picked I don't think anyone has use it for a DAW system yet  ASRock Z170 Extreme4
#11
robert_e_bone
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/10 11:49:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Kev999 2016/09/10 21:21:17
For whatever the worth, I have an SSD as a primary drive, and it is only 120 GB, and contains only:
 
OS - Windows 10
Stand-alone Application Programs and Plugins
Hidden folders AppData and ProgramData
 
The SSD C: drive is only about half full, as I had moved off all application content and user folders to different drives.
 
So, my 120 GB SSD is plenty big enough, and a new one of those can be obtained for less than $40 usd.  A 240 GB SSD drive can now be obtained for less than $60 usd.  I wouldn't waste the money for anything larger than a 240 GB SSD drive to be used as a primary drive.  I would suggest you would be better off putting that money into one or more additional data drives.
 
I altered the Location tabs for all of my user folders (documents, pictures, music, etc), to a different HDD (non-SSD), and have Cakewalk Projects, Sample Libraries, etc., split among multiple data drives.
 
Bob Bone
 

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
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Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
#12
Kev999
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/10 21:00:37 (permalink)
robert_e_bone
For whatever the worth, I have an SSD as a primary drive, and it is only 120 GB, and contains only:
 
OS - Windows 10
Stand-alone Application Programs and Plugins
Hidden folders AppData and ProgramData
 
The SSD C: drive is only about half full, as I had moved off all application content and user folders to different drives.
 
So, my 120 GB SSD is plenty big enough, and a new one of those can be obtained for less than $40 usd.  A 240 GB SSD drive can now be obtained for less than $60 usd.  I wouldn't waste the money for anything larger than a 240 GB SSD drive to be used as a primary drive.  I would suggest you would be better off putting that money into one or more additional data drives.
 
I altered the Location tabs for all of my user folders (documents, pictures, music, etc), to a different HDD (non-SSD), and have Cakewalk Projects, Sample Libraries, etc., split among multiple data drives.

 
I agree 100%.

My new o/s drive is a 120GB SSD (actually only 111GB) and it's less than one third full (and that's with 6 separate versions of Sonar installed). I have 2 more similar SSDs for multisamples and for current projects. Everything else that is not part of the music recording/editing/mixing process is stored on traditional HDDs.

SonarPlatinum(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)
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Having fun at work lately
#13
Mesh
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/12 12:03:53 (permalink)
I'm also interested in the ASRock Z170 Extreme4 MB (helping out my nephew in building a gaming PC)....the reviews look good, but would like to know from actual users. I'll check around some PC/build forums as well and post back...

Platinum Gaming DAW: AsRock Z77 Overclock Formula
I7 3770k @ 4.5GHz : 16GB RAM G.Skill Ripjaws X
250GB OS SSD : 3TB HDD : 1TB Sample HDD
Win 10 Pro x 64 : NH-D14 CPU Cooler 
HIS IceQ  2GB HD 7870
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
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#14
Enzstudios
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/12 19:50:17 (permalink)
Thanks much appreciated
 
I agree with those that say 500gig C-Drive is a bit of an over kill only if one takes the time to configure Folders etc... onto Other Hard Drives
 
Thanks Again :) 
#15
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Computer advice needed 2016/09/13 06:10:25 (permalink)
if you are worried about fan noise etc. the cheapest and most effective solution is to drill a hole in the wall, put the DAW in the other room, stick all USB and HDMI cables through the hole and fill the hole with foam or acoustic insulation ... unless it is a super silent all passive DAW, I would not even want it in the control room; it's just too annoying ...
post edited by Rob[at]Sound-Rehab - 2016/09/13 06:31:40

GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
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DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
#16
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