Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar

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Mad_Musicologist
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2018/07/07 17:46:05 (permalink)

Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar

Hi all,
there is a strange thing going on.
when I launch a project in Cakewalk Sonar (either "old" version or "new" by Bandlab), the DAW shuts down before I can really do something.
Then I have a pop up telling me something about an unforeseen error which caused Cakewalk to shut down.
Up to here, ProTools readers might say I am wrong in this forum.
Please see the screenshot, then you'll change your mind.
I notice that the causing file is a core file for AVID applications, so I better do not mess around with it.
Strange is that I NEVER run ProTools and Cakewalk simultaneously.
But they share some plugins (which have, for ProTools, .AAX, and for Cakewalk, .VST).
I have contacted of course both Cakewalk support and AVID support, sent the mini dump file to them, but might not have an answer before Monday evening.
I saw there is a thread with complaints that ProTools Ultimate 2018.4 (which I am running without problems) was crashing upon launch. Since this does not seem to be the case with my system, the cause for the issue must be somewhere else.
Please, I'd love so much to have both DAWs on one computer.
#1

14 Replies Related Threads

    Anderton
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/07 18:08:48 (permalink)
    The only suggestion I can think of is to change the name to CFnd.dlx before you want to use Sonar or CbB and then maybe it will be ignored. Change the name back to CFnd.dll when you want to use Pro Tools. I can't guarantee this will work but is worth a try.
     
    FWIW one day, my pre-subscription version of Pro Tools was working. After a Windows update, it would no longer open. I decided I didn't need it enough to get the subscription, but I downloaded the free version so I could take some screenshots for a book. It put tons of stuff on my hard drive...I'm considering uninstalling it. I think Avid assumes that you're running a dedicated Pro Tools computer.

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    #2
    tnipe
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/07 18:43:06 (permalink)
    I've been running both for a while now. I used to have that error or something very similar. It doesn't happen anymore, and I don't know what fixed it. But my point is that it works to have both installed. Have you tried ending the Avid application manager process before opening Sonar? Might be worth a shot.
    #3
    Mad_Musicologist
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/07 21:29:37 (permalink)
    tnipe
    I've been running both for a while now. I used to have that error or something very similar. It doesn't happen anymore, and I don't know what fixed it. But my point is that it works to have both installed. Have you tried ending the Avid application manager process before opening Sonar? Might be worth a shot.

    That's a fine idea, I will try. BTW, the friends in the ProTools forum suggested I should run Cakewalk as admin. That was helpful.
    But it really might be that the application manager is the thing I should prevent to be in autostart. It should only be active if I either launch it directly, or I launch any AVID application.
    I will try that tomorrow.
    But thankx for the cool idea. 
    #4
    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/07 21:51:41 (permalink)
    Read this thread. apparently this is a recurring issue with other daws as well.
    https://www.steinberg.net...viewtopic.php?t=119096

    I suspect that PT is installing some audio component that is being automatically loaded by some ASIO driver on your system and crashing on startup when Cakewalk is enumerating devices.

    If you share a minidump from the Cakewalk by bandlab crash I may be able to tell what operation is causing it to crash.

    Noel Borthwick
    Senior Manager Audio Core, BandLab
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    #5
    Mad_Musicologist
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/08 05:08:00 (permalink)
    Hi Noel, 
    that article says the conflict might be caused by Quicktime for Windows, I deinstalled all Quicktime, Apple for Windows-software which I had been running on this PC.
    Tried "normal" launch of my Cakewalk project, it crashed again: not directly upon launch, but after half a minute.
    When the crash occurred, I had been in playback. Even 15 seconds after the crash (Cakewalk had already disappeared from the screen) I still heard some fragments of the project I had been playing back. Weird. A ghost is playing inside my PC. ;-) Do I have to call in the "Men in Black",  or preferrably the Ghostbusters?
    #6
    mettelus
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/08 12:22:49 (permalink)
    Type "services" in your Windows search and look for all the PT stuff. Nothing related should be "automatic" (or loaded at boot). "Manual" is preferred for apps so that they only run when you actively launch the application. You have to right click and change that on the properties page for the service, but I highly suspect that PT is running things at boot. You can also "stop" processes there that may not show up in the task manager.

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    #7
    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/08 14:07:22 (permalink)
    If you read the thread CFnd stands for Core Foundation which seems to be some cross platform abstraction layer they are using. My guess is that they are either installing a custom ASIO driver or its a shell extension or service that gets invoked during Cakewalk (and other DAW) start up.

    Noel Borthwick
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    #8
    bitflipper
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/08 16:40:25 (permalink)
    Interesting that the thread is almost a year old and no resolution was ever posted.
     
    It shouldn't be that difficult to find out who's calling the DLL. It's got to be something the two DAWs have in common, most likely a driver, and it most likely says "Avid" in its file properties. Avid says the ASIO driver does not load it, but they probably determined that by looking at the source code and could have missed the reference if it's an indirect dependency.
     
    My understanding is that PT installs its own ASIO driver. First place I'd look is that driver's dependencies, as well as those of other audio-related drivers (there may be many). 
     
    Afterthought: try using a different driver for SONAR/CbB. The safest one for testing would be MME. If the problem goes away, that tells you it's definitely being caused by the ASIO driver.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #9
    Mad_Musicologist
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/08 20:31:02 (permalink)
    bitflipper
    Interesting that the thread is almost a year old and no resolution was ever posted.

    Weird. If AVID has knowledge of the issue, how come they miss solving it?
    bitflipper
    It shouldn't be that difficult to find out who's calling the DLL. It's got to be something the two DAWs have in common, most likely a driver, and it most likely says "Avid" in its file properties. Avid says the ASIO driver does not load it, but they probably determined that by looking at the source code and could have missed the reference if it's an indirect dependency.
     
    My understanding is that PT installs its own ASIO driver. First place I'd look is that driver's dependencies, as well as those of other audio-related drivers (there may be many). 

    In my config, Cakewalk uses the ASIO driver from my soundcard.
    I'd have to see which one PT is using.
    bitflipper 
    Afterthought: try using a different driver for SONAR/CbB. The safest one for testing would be MME. If the problem goes away, that tells you it's definitely being caused by the ASIO driver. 

    Didn't I once read for some reasons I do not recall anymore, MME is not optimal choice? 
    But I will give that a try tomorrow.

    Thankx for coming in on that issue. Maybe by tomorrow night we will know more, when I hopefully receive the analysis of the mini dump files.


    #10
    tlw
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/08 21:28:45 (permalink)
    MME isn’t optimal for latency (quite the opposite), but switching to it as a fault-finding measure might indicate if the problem is somewhere in the ASIO side of things. If switching Sonar to MME makes the crash go away then that points to the offending .dll being something accessed by Sonar as part of the ASIO environment.

    It might be worth trying Sonar in wasapi driver mode as well, if preferences includes that option. If that makes the problem go away then wasapi can produce latency results very similar to ASIO and using it might just solve the problem.

    Renaming the offending .dll as has been suggested is definitely worth a try. If Sonar loads and functions correctly then other than changing the dll’s name back to run PT the problem is as solved as it can be unless a permanent fix comes along. Then again, that might just result in Sonar complaining if can’t find the dll.....

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    #11
    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/08 22:46:21 (permalink)
    Here is what I got from the dumps you sent (thanks):
     
    Unhandled exception at 0x000000000ABE5F5A (CFnd.dll) in Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0x0000000000000000.
    This means the DLL is accessing a null pointer.
     
    The crash occurs on a thread from CFnd.dll so the crash is not in response from a direct call from Cakewalk.
    15824 0 Worker Thread ntdll.dll thread CFnd.dll!000000000abe5f5a
     
    I'm pretty sure that this is directly in response to the digiasio.dll being loaded because CFnd.dll is loaded soon after digiasio.dll is loaded when Cakewalk starts up. The reason the DLL is loaded is because they are exposing this as a standard ASIO DLL. If they don't want it loaded they shouldn't be exposing an ASIO device for public consumption :)
     
    Below is the logged info I get from the dump. You can see that the digiasio.dll gets loaded first and several other Pro tools dll's then load as a result. Finally shortly afterwards it crashes in CFnd.dll. This is something only Avid can look into since I don't have any further info.
     
    BTW you have another ASIO dll being loaded ctasio64.dll. This looks like something from Creative labs. I probably has no bearing but its best to uninstall it if you aren't using it.
     
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*c:\Windows\System32\digiasio.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\DirectIO.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\DSI.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\DigiPlatformSupport.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\DHS.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\CFnd.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded 'C:\Windows\System32\IPHLPAPI.DLL'. Cannot find or open the PDB file.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded 'C:\Windows\System32\mpr.dll'. Cannot find or open the PDB file.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded 'C:\Windows\System32\msi.dll'. Cannot find or open the PDB file.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded 'C:\Windows\System32\dbghelp.dll'. Cannot find or open the PDB file.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Windows\System32\urlmon.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Windows\System32\iertutil.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\AFnd.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\DFW.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\Avicuuc42.dll'. Module was built without symbols.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\Avicuin42.dll'. Module was built without symbols.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\DFW_KeyHook.dll'. No matching binary found.
    'Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp' (Minidump): Loaded '*C:\Program Files\Avid\Pro Tools\Avicudt42.dll'. Module was built without symbols.
     
    Unhandled exception at 0x000000000ABE5F5A (CFnd.dll) in Silkroad_07082018_070006.dmp: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0x0000000000000000.

    Noel Borthwick
    Senior Manager Audio Core, BandLab
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    #12
    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/08 22:47:07 (permalink)
    I bet renaming digiasio.dll will mask the problem.
     

    Noel Borthwick
    Senior Manager Audio Core, BandLab
    My Blog, Twitter, BandLab Profile
    #13
    bitflipper
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/09 03:11:07 (permalink)
    Thanks for sharing, Noel.
     
    Maybe PT has a nefarious internal function named KillEveryOtherDAW()?
     
    OK, bear with my conspiracy-theory logic...they could have resolved the ticket in an hour, couple days, max. But no follow-up post, no announcement of a bug fix.
     
    Maybe, just maybe, they found (or already knew about) the problem and just kept quiet?
     
    BTW, NASA knows about this too, which is why nobody can go to the South Pole.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #14
    Mad_Musicologist
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    Re: Conflict between ProTools and Cakewalk Sonar 2018/07/10 03:02:17 (permalink)
    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
    I bet renaming digiasio.dll will mask the problem.
     

    Thanks for your posts, Noel, brillant.
    I shall put that all in the thread I have with AVID.
    Of course I can try out renaming that digiasio.dll, first I'd have to see the properties:
    Years ago, when ProTools was made by Digidesign, I had an LE version which I abandoned (Cakewalk Sonar was way better then!) but never deinstalled from my PC. 
    I turned back to PT as alternative DAW when there was the "Gibson Crash" and it was unclear what youd happen to Cakewalk after that. At that time of course I deinstalled the old PT version. But I am not sure if I did that only after installing the new PT version and some how that old dll "survived" on my PC. I'll check that tonight...
    If that dll is older than2 years, I will even try to delete it, start PT, and if that works, I will shred it from my bin.
    Sure I will tell here, and there. 
    Thankx again.
     
    (in the evening...)
    Searching my PC for that file, I found 2 of them with identical name but different ages (one of 2015, the other one from April 2018), and in different locations.
    I deleted the older one and first tried to open ProTools, and a session there. No problem encountered. 
    Now I opened Cakewalk, NOT as admin, - - - NO PROBLEMS ANYMORE! Yay! 
    But I shall watch this....
    Posted the result in the quoted Steinberg thread, maybe that helps.
    Now I am going to shred that bad file from my bin. Rest in pieces.
    post edited by Mad_Musicologist - 2018/07/11 21:04:13
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