Helpful ReplyConfused about gain-staging at mixdown

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Billy86
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2017/06/27 23:38:12 (permalink)

Confused about gain-staging at mixdown

Hi.... Thanks in advance for all the great advice on this forum... 
 
I have a song, pretty simple, six tracks of music. Think Tom Pettyish...
Single vocal
Acoustic guitar
Scarbee P-Bass vsti
Recorded acoustic mandolin
Recorded tambourine
B-3 organ vsti
 
No track is clipping when set at unity gain, though some are definitely hotter than others. I'm attenuating each track with the gain knob to knock every track down to peaking at about -10db when the faders are at unity gain [0 db]. [This is BEFORE I insert any plugins on the individual tracks; it's just the raw signal I'm attenuating to create some track headroom.]
 
So, now the master bus is in pretty good shape, peaking at about -6 db. I know to leave some headroom for mastering, for which I'm using Izotope Ozone 7.
 
Things start to heat up on the master bus when I insert an instance of Izotope's Neutron on each track, tweaked for each particular use (EQ, compression, exciter, etc.).  Things go from "heating up" on the master bus overloading/clipping when I add in FX buses I have, primarily reverb, the Abbey Road Reel ADT plugin and the Abbey Road J-37 tape deck plugin for adding an analog vibe.
 
Would appreciate hearing gain staging strategies to use after I start inserting track plugins and routing to FX buses so I don't clip at the master bus. Combined, it's all adding up and overwhelming the master bus.
 
Thank you! 

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#1
interpolated
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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/27 23:58:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/06/28 12:43:41
Check your tracks and individual bus tracks. I used this re ently the tape plug-in you mentioned. I used a minus input volume going into tape and a smidging out. Adding a touch saturation helped get rid of some digital flatness.

Although I came across the issue before it could because you're routing a track to a bus without compensating for the track volume increase

Press E and then re-enable each track until you find the culprit. The highest track in volume and most audible when you check your mix in mono should give you an indication what is going on. Good luck

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Billy86
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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/28 00:28:38 (permalink)
interpolated
Check your tracks and individual bus tracks. I used this re ently the tape plug-in you mentioned. I used a minus input volume going into tape and a smidging out. Adding a touch saturation helped get rid of some digital flatness.

Although I came across the issue before it could because you're routing a track to a bus without compensating for the track volume increase

Press E and then re-enable each track until you find the culprit. The highest track in volume and most audible when you check your mix in mono should give you an indication what is going on. Good luck


Thanks for the reply.
Should the FX sends be pre- or post-fader?

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Boydie
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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/28 07:16:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/06/28 12:45:21
As a starting point I would simply press and hold CTRL without anything selected (which will group all faders) and pull them all down a bit (or reduce the gain if you prefer leaving your faders near unity)

Adding send busses will increase the overall level as even with a reverb bus you are getting additional signal by splitting (sending) some signal and then combining it again on the master bus

With compressors and tape plugins you need to be careful with input and output gain on the plugin itself - most will have an method to adjust both - if not you can use an empty FX chain in the Pro-Channel to adjust gain before and after plugins

Be especially careful with compressors and tape saturations to ensure that you don't fall in to the "it sounds louder so it must be better" trap

A good trick is to adjust your input and output gain levels on the plugin so that they are the same volume when bypassed- allowing you to truly hear what the plugin is doing - you can then decide if you want to push things a little

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Boydie
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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/28 07:20:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/06/28 12:46:23
Pre or Post fader is a decision more related to the type or effect and contro, you want rather than gain staging- the send level control is your best bet for gain staging

If you set the send PRE fader then your "mix" (send level) of effect stays constant so you get the same level in the effect regardless of the dry level of the original track or bus

If you set the send POST fader then the send level will change if the fader moves, which can be desirable in some circumstances

I would personally recommend you stick with PRE fader and use the send level to control the send/effects - until you find a situation where you want to try something different

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/28 09:45:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/06/29 01:00:25
Some very good points there Boydie but I personally would recommend that the OP sticks to POST fader for his Fx Sends to avoid the potential for confusion that could arise.

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/28 10:29:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/06/28 12:46:57
Actually, yes - I think you are right that sticking to POST fader may be the more straight forward way to go
 
My thinking was that changing to PRE would provide some separation with the fader not affecting the reverb in any way so they could be thought of separately
 
However, I can see how this could have the potential for confusion if the fader level was dropped drastically but you would still hear lots of reverb - because the reverb level is only affected by the SEND level and not the fader as it is sent before (PRE) the fader
 
Leaving it as POST would reduce the reverb amount along with the fader level being dropped - ie the SEND level would be reduced by the fader being reduced as the send is after (POST) the fader - as well as the potential to control the send level using the send level as well
 
A good example of when to use a PRE & POST send is if you wanted to have just the reverb wet signal and no dry signal for a "reverb throw"
 
If you set the send PRE fader and then automate the fader going down the reverb amount will remain constant (controlled by the SEND level) but the dry signal will reduce
 
If you tried the same thing POST fader then the amount of signal getting sent to the reverb would reduce as the fader went down

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dwardzala
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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/28 11:17:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/06/28 12:47:32
What I like to do is set the gain on my tracks my so that my signal is peaking at about -16 (the little white number next to the meter in track view or under the meter in console view).  That leaves plenty of room for effects and things like that.
 
Also, be aware that some effects not only process your track but also add volume.  Use their output controls to bring the volume back down (unless you want it raised.)  This is a good way to compare whether your effect is really making your track sound better and not just louder (which do to psycho-acoustics makes it seemingly sound better.)

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/28 14:23:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/06/28 17:48:31
Faders are the easiest means of changing volume, which is your problem it seems.  Don't zero them out w/ gain before you start mixing.  Wait until there is a problem w/ volume and fader position. 
 
Analog consoles had a gain input to help compensate for the throw of faders, which is most precise per dB when around the 0 setting.  Once you had a fader level set, you could fine tune it by using gain to get fader close to 0.  If you needed a change after that you could use small fader for small increments, rather than the slightest fader movements giving 5 db swings.
 
Think of the gain as an emergency tool for signals too loud or soft, not as a common vol control.  I seldom touch mine.

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/28 16:23:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/06/28 17:51:25
I've avoided this thread because I know the only way I can explain it is with a deep in-depth comment.
Which could leave us reading for hours. I will do my best to make long story shorter.
 
Disclaimer: everyone does this different but all are trying to achieve the same result.
After my project is complete, I remove any FX that may have been used during the recording process (Not VST-I's)
I then Zero out everything and then select/None. I hold CNTL to quick group all faders and bring the whole mix down until my Master bus is within reason (not overloading).
 
Here comes the tricky part. The balancing act.
I personally, start with drums, I solo my drums and begin to find a good sound. I then move on to Bass/ Bass synths and do the same but also trying to balance the Bass with the Drums (I use VU meters but this is another chapter)
I place FX in as I go but first establish a base mix with all instruments. If a compressor or some other VST is blowing up my MB, I changing the values to be within reason, however compressors are know to give some boost to the signal, this is where everything needs to be turned down See previous: I hold CNTL to quick group all faders and bring the whole mix down until my Master bus is within reason (not overloading).
 
I adjust all tracks many times within a mix. its just the nature of the beast. I seldom use the tracks Gain knob unless something is acting strange and overloading/not loud enough in the track strip (A funky VST that needs more boost to its input) Its a balancing act man. just make sure to stand in the middle of the see saw.
 

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Billy86
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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/29 00:44:31 (permalink)
Thanks everyone for weighing in. I'll further read and absorb all of this when I'm at my Sonar box and sit down to face the music... so to speak. 
 
Re: input/output balance... fortunately, Neutron has an internal auto-gain-match feature that automatically balances the levels pre- and post-FX internally so you can compare at equal levels and avoid thinking something sounds better just because it's louder. 
 
The Abbey Roads plugins don't have this, so I'll have to definitely keep an eye...
 
One other thing: with FX sends from a track to its corresponding FX bus, is it best to control the volume of that signal flow with the level of the track send, or can you also control that with the actual FX bus volume fader?
 

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/29 01:43:22 (permalink)
Billy86
One other thing: with FX sends from a track to its corresponding FX bus, is it best to control the volume of that signal flow with the level of the track send, or can you also control that with the actual FX bus volume fader? 


The answer to that, like so much else, is "it depends" :-)

Let's say you have a bunch of tracks each with a send to a reverb that's on an aux track/bus/whatever you call it and set 100% wet.

The sends are all post-fader, which is the usual way to set up reverbs because that way if you raise or lower a track fader the relevant track gets more or less reverb applied in the same way that whispering in a cathedral is less reverberant than shouting. It kind of automatically keeps the relative reverb levels tied to the dry signal for you.

If you adjust the reverb aux track's fader then everything with a send to it gets an equal amount of more or less reverb depending on if you move the fader up or down. If you adjust a send then you only change the amount of reverb being applied to the specific track that send is on.

If you're happy with the relative amounts of reverb each track gets but there's just too much of it overall, the reverb aux bus is peaking too high and everything sounds too reverberant and "boomy" then reducing the aux track fader level is a perfectly good way to deal with the problem - so long as the mix sounds good afterwards.

If you want the total reverb level to remain where it is relative to the mix as a whole but the bus track is clipping then it's time to reduce the level of all faders (and therefore also the post-fade sends) by the same amount until the aux track level is under control again. That will reduce the volume of the entire mix of course.

Sorting out reverb levels is one of those things where experimenting pays off. There's no one way or even "best" way to do it. You can even get a reverb bus out of the red by creating a second identical reverb bus and re-route half the track sends to the original reverb to the new one instead, keeping all the levels the same. Which will instantly reduce the signal in the overloading reverb aux track.

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/29 08:56:43 (permalink)
Just to add, it's always beneficial to put an EQ before your Reverb plug to filter out using a HPF what would otherwise result in a build up of a lot of LF rubbish.
Quite often I'll EQ afterwards as well to help the reverb sit better in the mix.

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/29 11:24:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bristol_Jonesey 2017/06/29 20:40:44
Bristol_Jonesey
Quite often I'll EQ afterwards as well to help the reverb sit better in the mix.



Nice trick BJ.
 
I love these gain staging threads. Even the most seasoned veterans of Sonar can learn something new from threads like these.  For example, even though I didn't necessarily agree with Boydie's approach, his posts were interesting in the way he chooses to use pre/post and his explanation. Great comments here.

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/30 15:14:30 (permalink)
chuckebaby
Bristol_Jonesey
Quite often I'll EQ afterwards as well to help the reverb sit better in the mix.



Nice trick BJ.
 
I love these gain staging threads. Even the most seasoned veterans of Sonar can learn something new from threads like these.  For example, even though I didn't necessarily agree with Boydie's approach, his posts were interesting in the way he chooses to use pre/post and his explanation. Great comments here.


+1 Great thread guys.  I am always learning here!
 

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/30 20:26:18 (permalink)
I use the solo button on the Reverb Bus to get an idea of the general character of the 'verb.
 
It's usually obvious if the top end needs taming, the middle notching etc. Low end taken care of on the way, before the 'verb.
 
But just as with audio tracks, EQ'ing in solo mode is fruitless - it has to be done within the context of the mix.
 
 

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/06/30 20:37:45 (permalink)
Despite some great mixing philosophies and techniques there almost always comes a point where every mixer chooses something arbitrary to start basing all their mixing decisions after. This isn't the worst thing in the world, after all you can always select all and lower an entire mix (or vice versa). For me, it's usually Kick Drum at -12dB. Just was taught that way and I've never had a problem with it. I usually end up with mixes peaking at around -6dB, which if anything I consider might be a skootch TOO hot for mastering but it's always worked out fine. 
 
Wanting faders at Unity is a bit of a vestige of the past. Decide what instrumentation you're going to start with and just go with where the faders go. It's not a real desk, so they can live wherever they are happy. Most people I know tend to stick with the Drums and Bass first, audition the vocal then mute it, guitars synths etc and save final vox for last. I like to do Drums and Bass, cleaning up as much as I can, then vox, then everything else. Your gains will stage themselves out when you choose where the kick volume should be.

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/07/02 15:58:29 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
I use the solo button on the Reverb Bus to get an idea of the general character of the 'verb.
 
It's usually obvious if the top end needs taming, the middle notching etc. Low end taken care of on the way, before the 'verb.
 
But just as with audio tracks, EQ'ing in solo mode is fruitless - it has to be done within the context of the mix.



Big ole +1.   I almost always pre-EQ reverb for the same reasons - I find it helps bring a little clarity, mostly with a HPF but sometimes also adding a LPF too if it seems a bit ringy/bitey.  
 
But I also agree with "EQ in the context of the mix".   I will EQ solo'd tracks for potential problem areas difficult to identify in the mix, but otherwise will EQ with a least a few instruments at a time to make sure what I think hear solo'd is actually working as expected.
 

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#18
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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/07/14 09:38:54 (permalink)
I spent a good proportion of last night gain attenuating some audio clips with pink noise. Supposedly the idea is you bring down the fader on your input track against the pink noise which plays at 0dBFS maximum until you can only hear the pink noise.
 
The eq curve of the pink noise is what is most audibly pleasing to us humans. Well I thought I would give a science a try. I did notice low-end frequencies needed less reduction whereas mids and trebles needed more. So basically these are my starting points without EQ or any other effects added at this stage. Whether I did this correctly and my mix elements are balanced is another story however we will see/hear.
 

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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/07/14 10:58:29 (permalink)
I have seen engineers doing, when using fx plugs, of some of the A & B methods switching between wet dry, while tweaking of fx, and to solo each track or bus,...and effect on & off..and make the fx volume output  almost the same as the un effected track volume, and fx output volume checking...so checking all this, insures a steady volume in, out, to a bus or group Vu, or VL, across the spectrum of all, to ensure the master bus metering is compiled properly...
 
That no overloading on any track or plug ins input or out to another, overloading any is reduced via doing this processing when tweaking the fx... is not occurring at any of the sources, in or outs, makes a more natural head room...
 
And not forced by limiting or brick walled compression being necessary later in the chain of events.
 
Some might say, it begins on the volumes set first with no effects....say make -12 a marker point to not exceed any of the tracks first set volumes.
 
So the loudest instrument is set to not go over, and then..being as it may,..put the other instruments lower than...
 
Then once all that is done to a sort of base foundation first....Then start adding Effects lightly, to mid range, to tame, and or change ...always trying to add flavours , but not adjust the volumes too much, in or out of any effect chaining....
 
Also when summing occurs...very low end frequencies of harmonics not measured, can become overwhelming if using high bit rates....it seems on my experience tweaking sound....panning and eq also ..so as not to add too many of the same frequencies when summing...is to make sure you try to bed the tracks of each, out of each sound track...properly, so that does not occur in summing...mastering that technique is a good practice to try to keep in mind.......?  separation  of frequencies is vital to the sum of all parts.
 
 
So yes some of the info in this thread is very good...Thanks all.
 
Cheers.
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#20
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Re: Confused about gain-staging at mixdown 2017/07/15 23:28:29 (permalink)
This will save me time when I get further into the project.
 
For instance, if I know there is approximately 6dB between one track and another. It will give me a balance to go with even after I start raising their volume. It did make me consider making use Gain Make-Up more when using compressors.
 
So far I'm at the arrangement stage and not even using any compressors or EQ except a couple of FX sends I am using as Reverb to give things a bit of air until I get to apply that proper.
 
Another thing I will have to pay attention to is, the group buss volumes so one is not dominating too much. This in theory should help me mix bass, mids and treble easier. Less is more as they say.
 
Lets hope this project doesn't crap out of me this time. 
 
 

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#21
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