Console Emu and "modern" music

The RC-Tube has a character that is quite different from the other VCC console emus.  If you're after punch, the SSL or API would be more appropriate.  If a particular emu isn't working for you, I'd just leave it off if you have no alternatives.  Each flavor will be best suited for specific styles and not so good on others, so it's good to have a few choices if you work in various genres. 
 
For a cheaper alternative to VCC and NLS, you might give StripBus a try:
 
http://www.sknote.it/StripBus.htm
 
Cheers,
Eddie

wise words from Danny. As "cool" as these things are , i find myself somewhat underwhelmed by them in actual practice. Just nailing a take seems to give me better results than throwing a bunch of enhancements. I'm still keeping an open mind, but until then I agree with Danny

Rain


Thanks guys.

The reason I ask is that I see my favorite engineers still relying on consoles to mix and since I've never had the opportunity to work w/ one of these, I'm curious as to what elusive quality it imprints. 

I sometimes ear albums that were tracked an mixed in the box, and for certain genres, it sometimes feel like something is missing. But I'm starting to think that at least for certain styles, ITB might actually be better.


But maybe that little something just can't be re-created w/ plugs.

Well digital is going to track what you put into it. Plugs or hardware, are going to color the sound. This coloration in my opinion, is subjective. Hardware gear, depending on what you decide to use, may lightly saturate a sound....it may color it and add warmth which takes away a little top end etc. 9 out of 10 times, you can get these results with a good ear and an eq. I've been fighting guys for years on this, but no one seems to believe me because they just don't want to bother to take the time to experiment for themselves.
 
The only thing you're not going to be able to do, is cop the sound of a saturated tape deck. No one has that down in my opinion, but the UAD stuff is as close as your going to get. I have 2 tape machines here. A 16 track 1 inch and a 24 track 2 inch. All they do when I push the signals a bit, is lightly compress the sounds and give me a little saturation. What this is in reality...less highs due to the tape taking them away, and tape compression. Use a fat eq and a good compressor while experimenting a bit, and I swear to you, as God is my witness, it will be so close only you will be able to tell.
 
As for consoles....a good console should NOT really alter the sound of your audio. I've done tests here to where the differences are so miniscule, it's not worth bothering. Listen to something 3 times. If you can't hear a difference and are forcing yourself to hear the difference, it ain't there enough to worry about it. Yeah, there are some goodies out there that can make a difference in sounds...there is no fallacy in that part of it. However, it's still possible to get close no matter what gets used.
 
When someone uses a console strip, most of the time they do so because of the eq that is supplied in that console. Certain eq's give you control that others do not. You'll notice less movement to notice sound changes in a good console strip with eq than an off brand that has the same features. A good example of this is the Mackie console vs the Behringer console that were supposedly created from the same mold which ended in some suit. The Behringer eq's were not sensitive and you had to really jump on them to notice a difference. This resulted in more of an eq'd sound and at times, a more harsh timbre.
 
The Mackie has noticeable results with slight eq knob movements. This is the type of eq you want...something that doesn't need to be jumped on hard to notice a difference. Sometimes the circuitry in a console will alter the sound, other times you won't be able to tell. You can nail the sound of anything you want with the right eq and the right ears, trust me when I tell you. Tape saturation done right and mic phasing is the only thing plugins aren't going to get right. Everything else...is all hype and completely achieveable...trust me brother.
 
If you hear a mix that sounds like something is missing and it happens to have been done ITB, either you don't like the mix, or that engineer may not have been up to your specs that time. We can't blame ITB for being better or worse for something. It's all in the ears of the artists and engineers as well as how the sources were tracked and how the rooms were utilized during tracking. Make no mistake...these channel emulators are not making a difference in anyone's world for the better. The only good thing they offer is the closest thing to a light tape saturation. Add a good compressor along with them, low pass 16k with something like a Sonitus eq that allows you Q control within a low pass/high pass to tweak just how much you want out, (it's one of the only EQ's that allows this by the way) and you got instant tape/analog sound and warmth. Add UAD plugs to your arsenal, and it gets even closer.
 
I use my consoles for 3 reasons:
 
1. All the stuff in the console can be sent to disc in one shot. Every instrument and processor goes into my console and has its own dedicated channel.
 
2. No input monitoring or latency control needed. I set my stuff to 2048 and leave it alone because the console is my live monitor.
 
3. Fader automation and onboard hardware. I like to lightly compress my signals going to disc and have dedicated compressors on each channel of my board to do this. No need for a patch bay or anything else. The automated faders in my console sync right up with Sonar so it's also a controller. Though I try my best NOT to use any console eq and get the source right from the start, it's nice to just press a high pass button on a guitar, bass or kick drum. I can always add it back later if need be.
 
But my main reason for the console is #1. It's nice to have everything you own ready to go in the console. Arm your track and it gets sent to disc without patching anything and the only time I need to adjust my latency is if I record a soft synth in real time or some drum module while using my V-Drums kit. Other than that, it never gets touched.
 
I've tried going right to disc and bypassing my consoles....not a difference I can notice. So in my particular case, the console isn't adding anything spectacular other than multiple channels and the ability to use a few compressors going to disc. They are just used to condition the signal to control peaks...not to add saturation or a "compressed" sound, if you will.
 
Another thing to keep in mind, if you are not mic'ing things up, you're losing loads of tracking elements. As much as we love speaker sims and they make things easier on us, the sound size is always smaller than if you mic an amp. Mic an acoustic guitar at the 12th fret or where the neck meets the body. Then record the acoustic (if it has a pup) using speaker sim or something. The sound size is drastically different. Same with mic'ing an amp. The combination of mics used on a guitar amp literally increase the size of the sound. Being able to nail that while also being in a room to where you can have the right amount of volume in that sound, is the key. Same with drums....these drum modules we all love are awesome! Mic a real kit and the sound size grows if you know what you're doing. The only drum module out there in my experience that gets "real drums in a room" is BFD2. Everything else is overly processed, small and doesn't even sound like a real drum if you kill all the processing. They sound like drum machines from the 80's.
 
So keep some of this stuff in mind, Rain. It's super important. Just about none of the pro's are using speaker sims on guitar. They'll layer them in with a mic'd amp, but that is not their "core" soundsource. Drums are all hybridded these days, so you have a mix of the real kit and some samples on top to enhance the real kit. These two instruments alone are your true core for rock music. A bass in the mix is well, just a bass. It's rare you listen to a rock mix and say "hey, that's a fantastic bass tone" unless the bass shows itself BY itself.
 
That's not to say don't worry about your bass. A good example of this...John Myung from Dream Theater. Worst bass tone known to man...but you wouldn't know it until the thing shows up by itself. It works perfectly in DT's mixes. Shame too...the dude is a fantastic bassist. His tone is just horrendous. Keys/synths etc are fake anyway so they don't play as much of a role and chances are you don't own a real piano to mic up or have access to a real string ensemble. :) Vocals....picking the right mic for the voice and then knowing how to process that particular voice is the key. Everything else brother...is all hype in my opinion.
 
-Danny

Thanks Jonesey! Well, you can still get good tones out of using speaker sim type stuff and plugs, but you have to really go into it listening closely and comparing what your mic'd sound is like. It also would be a good idea to check out the Redwirze cab impulses as to me, they are some of the best on the planet and give you a wide array of sound choices for the money.

Speaking of speaker sims, I do this "room within a room" thing with my speaker sims that sounds nearly the same as my Greenback cab with a 57 on it. Now, the key is to double mic to mix and match sounds as an entity. So if I use say...a 421 and a 57 on the cab, and then put a mic or two a little further away to capture some room, a speaker sim sound isn't going to compare. Sound "wise" it might...but sound SIZE wise, it will not.

The other thing to keep in mind is, for most rock music these days, rooms don't come into play as much as people think they do. Of course I'll be impaled for saying something like that, but if anyone that decides to bash me for that takes the time to listen to some current music, *most* things have a close up mic'd sound. The days of arena guitars and drums...or John Bonham type drum sounds, vocal ambiences, are a thing of the past. This has been replaced by close mic'ing techniques and parallel compression to add a bit more sizzle and zip. So in these times, where rooms are not as important, the mic's are going to make a difference on the size of the sound and if we need additional room ambience, there are some incredible impulses out there that would fool even the best trained ears.

The other thing to keep in mind is, most rock is all about layering. So we can have a big, mic'd sound and hybrid a plug or some sort of amp sim along with it. Layering is all about having different sounds performing to create the layered effect. Same with drums. We use a real kit and enhance with samples that are tuned over top for a little extra zip and can create wider drum sounds from doing this.

Yeah, those Blackstars are killer amps brother. Glad it's working out for you. I'm interested in hearing some clips when you get a minute. I got a pretty cool little piece of kit I've been working with that you may enjoy. Not sure if you know this or not, but I do quite a bit of beta work for a few companies. Acme Bar Gig is one of them...and we finally released our full version of "Head Case". I'll share a little sample with you so you can see what it sounds like.

When I do my beta testing, I like to create little projects so I can use stuff the way I would in the real world. I wrote this piece as a test project on my little Dell at home and then jumped on my V Drums kit and played to it. When the final release of Head Case came out, I dialed in these sounds (rhythm and lead) in about 2 minutes, so they were the first sounds I had created in the final version which was way different from the 200 beta's I tested. LOL!

The one thing you'll notice in this, which is also why I'm sharing it with you....the sound size is a bit smaller than if we would have used real drums and mic'd amps. Though I feel this is definitely cool for a little demo done on a Realtek (which will also make the sound suffer a bit compared to a real recording card at 24/48) everytime we go totally direct, the sound size will be smaller even though the sounds might be acceptable. To me, this is a prime example of that...but be that as it may, I still love the final outcome here considering it took no time at all other than the drums...which totally challenged me. Check it out if you get a minute...just a short instrumental piece using my own signature head called "Skull Job" that is also included in the suite.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Gimme%20A%20Skull%20Job.mp3

Here's what the head looks like:

-Danny

Jonesey - you and I seem to have very similar tastes when it comes to guitars and amps. I remember you getting that black LP around the same time as I got mine. Am I mistaken or it was also a gift from your wife?

Anyway, glad to hear you're enjoying the Blackstar. I definitely plan on getting a new one in the future, maybe the same 5 watts as your actually.

Danny, once again, great post, man. I'm guessing that a lot those engineers simply don't feel like spending time trying to learn and reproduce that sound ITB when they have access to all the gear to do it upfront, which makes sense, somehow.

Actually, going back to micing the amp is part of the plan this year, as soon as we move into a house, sometimes in May I think. More and more, I find myself moving towards getting the sound I need upfront. 

That being said, the last 18 months were crucial into training my ear to learn and identify what won't work in the context of a mix earlier in the process, so I don't feel like I've wasted time.

Funny you mentioned the bass, because, as I've mentioned before, it is still one of my pet peeves. Though that "Systematic Mixing Guide" I've mentioned in another thread really did help me in that regard. Stage compression in particular, which I hadn't tried before, seems to work better for me.

The other thing I'm looking forward too is a treated room and ARC. I know I won't be able to mix to my liking until that gets done. But in the meantime, I'm still learning a little something every day.

I'll give another little plug for Head Case. Danny was kind enough to let me test it when it was still in development, and its unreal. So happy they've finally released a commercial version - don't even delay, just go and buy it!

Back to the OP - rain, I bought Slate's VCC when it first came out because, like you, the stuff I demoed it on sounded incredible. Bt after buying it I quickly discovered that its not what you want all the time. I was very surprised that I liked this plug, because I'm very skeptical of stuff like this, but as I said, I demoed it, and it sounded great so I bought it. 

I think you just have to listen carefully with every new project and determine whether or not its what you want. Sometimes, it works on certain instruments even if it doesn't work on everything.

The danger with this type of plugin is that you just stick it on everything without thinking, almost as if you feel a need to get value for money! I've found if you listen carefully, VCC can be a great tool, but I think your default position should be to NOT use it - for me, I need to be convinced that something is actually improving my sound before I let it anywhere near my audio! It seems so many people record their tracks and then just go into auto pilot and start to throw plugins on everything just because 'that's what you do!'

Gain staging is VERY important when using this plug.

You mentioned the RC Tube emu - I absolutely hate it! I find it just masks and muddies up everything I try it on! 

So I wouldn't give up on it rain, but if I were you, I'd adopt a 'I've got to hear an audible improvement in sound before I use this thing' mentality. Start every project assuming you're not going to use it. 

Yeah, I'm sure I'll probably be depressed for a couple of weeks once I move into a room w/ some treatment. But that's the story of my musical life - an emotional roller-coaster. ;) 

I'm pretty much sold on the Bass POD already. The thing is that the needs evolve all the time. At first we were supposed to have the bass tracked by a friend in Montreal, but the more we work on this thing, the more we want to do at home.

At this point, in all humility, I don't think my rough mixes sound that bad, but I definitely can hear recurring issues and I know there's ton of room for improvement. 

I actually use Line 6's Pod Farm 2 a lot for bass and have been pretty happy with the tones that I get from that.  I am assuming they are close to the Bass POD.  I get really good tones out of mic'ing my bass amp as well, but it is not nearly as convenient.

I guess I am in the minority on the Console Emulation in PC.  I like the sounds that I am getting when I mix with just of touch of Emu on each track.  The difference is very sublte, but I like what I am getting.  To each his own, I suppose.

I hear what you are saying Danny on mic'ing a real amp compared to the sims.  I like the fulness of the tone that I get from a real tube amp, by mic'ing the amp.  It always has that full, rich tone that I am going for.  Especially for slower, melodic guitar solos.  I have gotten some pretty convincing tones out of sims as well, but it takes a lot of tweaking.  Most of the time, I use a combination of both, layered and blended into a song.  It is much easier for me, while in the writing and arranging stages, to work with the sims...especially late at night.  Once I have figured out where I am going with things, I often go back and layer in the real, mic'ed amp tones.

Danny, that's a lot of options with options.. thank you for the feedback. Hearing your demo of Head Case I was very impressed with the guitar sounds. Your playing was ok too... ha What I am missing in my guitar tone is that really good overdrive, sustain and bite without having all the distortion. make sense? Your sound in that demo had exactly all those but still sounded very 'clean'. For $60 this might just be a worthwhile purchase. Dave

Rain,

That's exactly why I use it.  It just seems to naturally sit better in the mix with my Rickenbacker. 

Thanks Danny, you made my day bro!

I'm not crazy about any of the sims; and because of that, I've never really fully invested in any brand.  POD Farm has the most choices for me because I have on of Line 6's boxes, which gave me a larger group of amps and effects to choose from.  I have found a few decent sounds in PF, but nothing to rave about.  Basically, I have figured out which amps sound best to me in PF and I work on refining just a few of them into my tone.  I'm not really sure what I think of Th2 yet.  I've got lighter versions of Amplitube and GR and they are just so, so for me; nothing thrilling.

As you know, I am a low gain man, more of a tube saturated fan than preamp; heavy blues or classic rock tone.  How does the Headcase amp sound if you dial back the gain and slow down the fingers?   That playing was outrageously fast man!

MakeShift


Thanks Danny, you made my day bro!

I'm not crazy about any of the sims; and because of that, I've never really fully invested in any brand.  POD Farm has the most choices for me because I have on of Line 6's boxes, which gave me a larger group of amps and effects to choose from.  I have found a few decent sounds in PF, but nothing to rave about.  I'm not really sure what I think of Th2 yet.

As you know, I am a low gain man, more of a tube saturated fan than preamp; heavy blues or classic rock tone.  How does the Headcase amp sound if you dial back the gain and slow down the fingers?

No problem Mike. :) The Headcase stuff (if you look at the pic I posted) has clean/dirty then crunch/stupendous. In dirty/crunch mode, it would be perfect for you. That's how I use it myself, but I use a stomp box in our stom box selection. I have my own little stomp in there called "Skull Driver" which is sort of like having an overdrive into a light gain amp turning it into a super power. I do use Stupendous mode also, but without any stomps. These amps in our suite work great for all styles in my opinion. I don't make a dime for bragging about this thing...it just simply works and works well for the money in my opinion. :)
 
-Danny