sharke
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Console Emulation and distortion
What I've found is that if you have the CE on the master bus driven up all the way, and you have a strong kick drum sounding over, say, a clean sustained synth chord, the kick will distort the synth when it hits. It's like the sound of a blown out, rattling speaker. Even if I turn the master bus way down I can still hear the rattling noise. It also happens whether or not I have CE on the kick track. I can only identify it clearly with a sparse arrangement like this, but it's making me reluctant to turn the drive knob any further than 2 or 3 dB lest it introduce all kinds of distortion across the whole mix that my less than perfect hearing isn't picking up.
It seems to be more prevalent on the N-Type and A-Type settings, although still a problem on the S-Type setting as well.
What is everyone else doing in terms of that drive knob? All the way, a little way, or not at all?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Beepster
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/10 19:50:51
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I kept it in the middle. I didn't go in with a microscope or anything but yeah... cranking the drive made things sound undesirable like a crappy dirty worn out board. However I'm assuming cranking it up for more subtle stuff like acoustic instruments, light vocals or the like might produce some nice sounds. I'll be playing around with that kind of thing soon enough.
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sharke
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/10 20:19:36
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Do you have a favorite CE type Beepster? At first I was hovering between the N-Type and A-Types, but am now beginning to think the S-Type works better for electronic music.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Beepster
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/10 20:25:20
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I'm digging the N-Type for my metal stuff. I used it on that track I posted downstairs on the master bus and I think my rhythm guitar busses. Couldn't be bothered applying it to the whole project an I have a feeling I would not have liked the results even though it's supposed to be a cumulative effect. Looking forward to trying it on some more organic stuff like acoustic guit and vocs but that will have to wait for now.
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sharke
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/10 20:32:04
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It's definitely more pronounced if you put it on both the tracks and the master bus.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Beepster
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/10 20:44:42
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Yeah. I don't think I'm going to pile it on as recommended because a) to my ears I'd rather use it subtly and b) having it all over the place is just one extra thing to consider while mixing. I am quite glad they included it though because IMO it just gave a tiny little bit of extra sparkle to my guitars which at the moment are completely sim based. Between the console EMU and TH2 being included in X2 I don't seem to have to worry too much about anything else in regards to my heavily distorted guit tracks.
Very happy I didn't piddle around waiting to upgrade. Cheers.
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sharke
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/10 20:53:48
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One thing they recommended was to put it on all of your tracks and the master bus from the get-go, so that you're mixing into it from the start rather than worrying about how it's going to affect things if you slap it on top of something that's already been carefully mixed. Although like everything else, it's down to the individual I suppose. Just one more creative tool at our disposals!
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Beepster
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/10 21:01:27
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I did actually apply it to some of my tracks at the very start of the mixing process and really didn't like what it did from the get go so I bailed on it it until the end. It wasn't as subtle as much of the info says but I think that's due to the aggressive nature of the tracks in question. It was very much like you described and what I detailed earlier... like an old analog console that needed a cleaning/repair. But yes... definitely a nice tool for the kit and everyone should be able to benefit from it one way or the other. I would however NOT apply it blindly to the entire mix. Seems the type of effect that should really be approached thoughtfully and carefully.
Just my thoughts on the matter. Cheers.
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swamptooth
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/10 21:48:06
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one of the best gain staging tips i ever heard was to dial your kick drum peak at -14db to -10db and then build all the other layers around that.
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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Beepster
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/10 21:51:46
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Dude... you don't know how much I needed that insight. Cheers.
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sharke
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/10 22:16:52
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I will definitely try that.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/11 09:37:09
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One of the best gain staging tips i ever heard was to dial your kick drum peak at -14db to -10db and then build all the other layers around that. That's False!!! Not True at all!! That's not for every song. What if your song has 40 tracks in it? If you song has 40 tracks in it, -14dB will be way way way to loud to build a song around it. The volume level of your Kick or any other instrument is Relative to the Number of tracks you have in a project. The more tracks you have in a song, the lower each track has to be. Because, if you have 10 tracks at -10dB, the sum of those 10 tracks will be less the the sum of 20 tracks at -10dB. Its all Relative Bro. you do not start your kick at a fixed point. It depends on the track count CJ
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bitflipper
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/11 11:02:02
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You can get exactly the same effect on a real hardware console. The emulator is just doing its job. CE doesn't sprinkle in some kind of magic Neve-dust; "console emulation" = "distortion". And it's additive.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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jb101
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/11 14:48:03
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As bitflipper said, the console emulation will distort if driven too hard, just like the real thing.
Craig Anderton also advised in another thread to be very careful about gain staging with the emulators. If any part of the ProChannel runs too hot the Console Emulators seem to exaggerate it. So keep an eye on the global input meter and any of the modules clip LED's.
I find inserting blank FXChains into the PC are handy if one of the modules is clipping. You can use the input/output sliders to gain stage.
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sharke
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/11 15:02:26
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Well it's good to know that this is how a real console behaves. There are, of course, many of us who have never even used a real console before!
jb101, what is the deal with the global input meter? Does this indicate that the ProChannel is running too hot? In the manual, it says that the global input meter is an "Activity indicator that shows if any module is processing audio."
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/11 15:05:36
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CJaysMusic
One of the best gain staging tips i ever heard was to dial your kick drum peak at -14db to -10db and then build all the other layers around that.
That's False!!! Not True at all!! That's not for every song. What if your song has 40 tracks in it? If you song has 40 tracks in it, -14dB will be way way way to loud to build a song around it.
The volume level of your Kick or any other instrument is Relative to the Number of tracks you have in a project.
The more tracks you have in a song, the lower each track has to be. Because, if you have 10 tracks at -10dB, the sum of those 10 tracks will be less the the sum of 20 tracks at -10dB.
Its all Relative Bro. you do not start your kick at a fixed point. It depends on the track count
CJ
I guess I will play that by ear once I start getting up to that many tracks....for the 20 track project I have going right now (which is electronic based and quite kick heavy), around -11dB has proven to be an excellent starting point. Regardless of any specific level however, I think for a mixing amateur like myself starting with the kick and building the levels around it seems to make sense, at least in getting started with mix levels.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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swamptooth
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/11 15:08:25
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CJaysMusic
One of the best gain staging tips i ever heard was to dial your kick drum peak at -14db to -10db and then build all the other layers around that.
That's False!!! Not True at all!! That's not for every song. What if your song has 40 tracks in it? If you song has 40 tracks in it, -14dB will be way way way to loud to build a song around it.
The volume level of your Kick or any other instrument is Relative to the Number of tracks you have in a project.
The more tracks you have in a song, the lower each track has to be. Because, if you have 10 tracks at -10dB, the sum of those 10 tracks will be less the the sum of 20 tracks at -10dB.
Its all Relative Bro. you do not start your kick at a fixed point. It depends on the track count
CJ
Right, which is why you build around it. If you need to lower the kick level you do that as they cumulative layers get hotter or throw in some volume envelope automation. I didn't mean to imply that every track should be at -10db. There will be some in the -20s and 30s of course but the kick and (esp sub) bass will typically be hotter than most. As you add tracks and the signal gets hotter then you do a grouped lowering of all track volume. And, of course, if you're using say 6-10 kick drum tracks with mixes of live drums through different mics and sampled drums like a lot of r&b and dance music does then you're going to want to mix all of those to get the layered sound you want and group all the faders when you get the levels right so that you can adjust them all down as needed.
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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jb101
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/11 15:59:18
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sharke
Well it's good to know that this is how a real console behaves. There are, of course, many of us who have never even used a real console before!
jb101, what is the deal with the global input meter? Does this indicate that the ProChannel is running too hot? In the manual, it says that the global input meter is an "Activity indicator that shows if any module is processing audio."
If it glows red, then something's clipping. Try it. Have the console view and inspector open and increase the input gain. As the gain increases the global input meter will glow red at the same time one of your PC modules clip LED goes red.
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sharke
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/11 19:55:05
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Aha, well that makes a lot of sense.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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clintmartin
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/11 22:11:39
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I don't know if I like the CE or not. I'm glad I get to test and decide though.
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tunekicker
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Re:Console Emulation and distortion
2012/11/12 02:01:33
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As for the position of the gain knob I start at +3 by default and then tweak to taste. This makes the drive more noticeable than at 0 and less annoying than +6 (if +6 is too much for a particular track.)
Usually I end up between 0 and 3 somewhere.
As for which module, it defaults to the S model. I then ask myself "do I want this to be a tad more open/bright? Then I use the N. Do I want it warmer/darker? Then I use the A. If neither sounds better I go back to S. If I still don't like S I will a/b with it bypassed and decide whether to keep it or drop it.
Of course, this is all relevant to musical style and where I want the mix on the continuum between clean and warm/driven.
Peace,
Tunes
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