Control Surface compatibility updates?

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VanessaJ
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2016/11/15 16:03:12 (permalink)
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Control Surface compatibility updates?

So Sonar has some control surface presets in its database. Control surfaces that are mostly 5 to 10 years out of date.
 
Oh sure, they have their "Cakewalk Generic Surface" set-up, which is itself a very cumbersome, time-consuming, counter-intuitive and (at least in my experience) a hit-or-miss functionality. But, in this era of more advanced control surfaces that have greater compatibility with other DAWs (like PT, Logic Pro, Cubase, Ableton, etc etc etc), Sonar is really behind the curve on this.
 
I have a couple of very basic control surfaces, each of which took me hours to set up in Sonar (using the Generic Surface routine), and one of which I STILL can't use half the knobs or ANY of the buttons. WTF?
 
Cakewalk, please ... with all these monthly updates, would it not be possible to include preset updates for control surfaces that are currently on the market?

"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart" ~ Confucius
 
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#1

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    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/16 02:04:21 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    VanessaJ
    Cakewalk, please ... with all these monthly updates, would it not be possible to include preset updates for control surfaces that are currently on the market?




    nice request but don't get your hopes up. there have not been any updates or even minor fixes to CS or ACT in ages.

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    #2
    azslow3
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/16 03:11:02 (permalink)
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    VanessaJ
    So Sonar has some control surface presets in its database. Control surfaces that are mostly 5 to 10 years out of date.

    There are several approaches:
    * specialized program (not preset) for Sonar, which controller producer can provide. But they do not. From all devices on the market, only Presonus Faderport and Naktar Impact have that.
    * "mackie mode". Normally implemented incorrectly/incomplete. But basic things are working (with incomplete implementation original Sonar plug-in has problems, but there is a mod of it)
    * "generic" or "ACT MIDI" way. To prepare any "preset", someone has to have the device. Most devices are configurable, that means the preset will work with one particular device preset. Well, CW, producer or users can do this. Takes half an hour.
     

    ...But, in this era of more advanced control surfaces...

    Apart from no longer writing documentation with communication details and declaring a controller "advanced", controller producers have not done much during last 20 years. In hardware, these controllers are still as dumb as they was. For some controllers, producers have written "advanced software". Customers pay for this software (on the order if not more than for the hardware). But if this software does not support particular DAW and is "proprietary", what can DAW programmers do?
     

    I have a couple of very basic control surfaces, each of which took me hours to set up in Sonar (using the Generic Surface routine), and one of which I STILL can't use half the knobs or ANY of the buttons. WTF?

    I do not know what you could do "hours" with Generic Surface. It is "one to one" mapping style, one control take 10 seconds at most. One hour - 360 control
    So I can not recommend my own controlling software, it is miles more complicated, counter-intuitive, etc. then Generic Surface. But it supports any number of controls (also bi-directionally).
     

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    #3
    VanessaJ
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/16 03:51:22 (permalink)
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    I do not know what you could do "hours" with Generic Surface. It is "one to one" mapping style, one control take 10 seconds at most. One hour - 360 control
    So I can not recommend my own controlling software, it is miles more complicated, counter-intuitive, etc. then Generic Surface. But it supports any number of controls (also bi-directionally).
     



    Well perhaps you have more experience with their generic control program than I do. The instructions Cakewalk provides date back to Sonar 6.1, and don't appear to be more recent.
    What took me "hours" was trying in vain to get a row of buttons to work (to no avail) and a second row of knobs to work (also to no avail). I did get ONE row of knobs to work, but nothing else.
     
    I do have 2 other controllers. One which works perfectly fine (after all the cell-assigning and trigger-assigning) and 2 midi keyboards on which NONE of the dials/sliders/buttons will work (at least the keys and the mod/pitch wheels work). And this is after trying on multiple occasions. I have an older CME keyboard and a newer iCon keyboard.
     
    Some of the time involved has to do with the two-step nature of assigning specific cells first, then assigning controls TO specific cells, and finally assigning specific control functions on the device itself. If you use one of the older controllers in the Sonar database, it's almost plug-n-play. You simply tell Sonar that (X) controller is assigned to (X) channel and the knobs/sliders/buttons work as they should (ideally).
    But many of the controllers in that list have been off the market for a few or more years, and the newer devices have no preset within Sonar.
     
    I really like Sonar, but this control surface problem has me looking to PT, or Cubase, or Logic Pro (I have both Mac and PC) just so I'm not so limited in control interfaces.

    "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart" ~ Confucius
     
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    #4
    azslow3
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/16 06:15:22 (permalink)
    +2 (2)
    I do not know how CW was getting presets before.
     
    And I agree that Generic Surface can be difficult to setup, typical reasons:
    1) no understanding what and where hardware is sending. Before everything was documented. Now, for many controllers the documentation is like "for Ableton, do this...". And there is no Sonar section. In such case, a bit more advanced experience with MIDI is required.
    2) Generic Surface does not show live what it is receiving from the hardware. And that is important to configure things correctly. The only strait possibility to do this in Sonar is to "record" MIDI track operating different control groups and then using Event view analyze which controls send to which port and which "mode" they have. Then set options in the Generic Surface according to that analysis.
    3) "Default" presets on many keyboards are questionable. For example, some buttons and knobs can send the same CC messages. In such case only once control can be used since another is just a "duplication" of it from the DAW perspective. That normally can be solved by configuring keyboard using manufacturer utility or directly on hardware.
    4) which should be the first... most users, me inclusive, "overseen" chapters 20 and 40 in the lengthy Sonar reference manual. Some just give up quickly then, some use what they could get working from "common sense" logic, some (me) even writing there own controller software. Reading the documentation can avoid that  
     
    I have my own software, it is much more generic then "Generic controller". It has no limits in controls, shows incoming MIDI, allows bi-directional communications, device "chaining", etc. Basic setup is not so difficult, I have made "Startup preset" video.
     
    But as I have written in (1) and (3), controllers can be rather "tricky" in what they are sending to computers. "Tuning" my software is a not easy task, with huge amount of possibilities it has huge amount of options.
     
    So for everyone who is interested, I am providing "setup service". 30 minutes with Teamview+Skype and any (!) controller (till it is physically broken) will do basic operations like transport + strip control. More complicated cases can take a while to prepare off-line (at the moment pending is "all possible modes" old Yamaha Digital Mixer), but "startup" is a matter of minutes (even with Yamaha, which is sending information in such a form that "Generic controller" is unable to understand it all).
     
    My software and the "service" are absolutely free, no viruses, no ads, not "calling home".
     
    While there are already some presets for my software, created by users or in cooperation with users, CME and iCon are not in the list yet. With iCon I have rather questionable feeling from the Internet: qCon Pro claims they are working throw Mickie protocol. But there are many reports that something is wrong with that. On one of such question, there was a reply that they could not find the documentation for Mackie (really?) and so the implementation is there own imagination how it is working
     
    So, if you are serious about your control surfaces functionality in Sonar, there is a (free) way to make it work. If you think that PT/Cubase/Logic/other is simpler way to solve that problem, I can only say that the functionality you can get out of controllers is more limited then in Sonar (till you are ready to program in C++/Javascript/Python, depending from which DAW you select... but in this case you could write you own controller in C++ for Sonar as well...).
     

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    #5
    VanessaJ
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/20 04:15:36 (permalink)
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    azslow3
    So, if you are serious about your control surfaces functionality in Sonar, there is a (free) way to make it work. If you think that PT/Cubase/Logic/other is simpler way to solve that problem, I can only say that the functionality you can get out of controllers is more limited then in Sonar (till you are ready to program in C++/Javascript/Python, depending from which DAW you select... but in this case you could write you own controller in C++ for Sonar as well...).
     




    Here's the thing ... I'm a musician. I play music. I compose and arrange music.
    I'm not an engineer and I'm not a software programmer, and I don't run a professional studio. When I pay for a DAW, I expect that I shouldn't need to go through round-abouts or back doors or any other programming. All of that interferes with the creative process. Beyond learning the ins and outs of a DAW, I simply want to plug in my instruments and equipment and get to the business of making music. Controllers make that creative process more streamlined, but not if your DAW forces you to do tricks to get it to work with the equipment.
     
    Am I being unreasonable to simply want to plug in, push "record", and play?

    "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart" ~ Confucius
     
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    #6
    fireberd
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/20 10:13:22 (permalink)
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    I've posted about the control surface setups as a suggestion before.  Sonar should be able to detect and properly install control surfaces.    I also have Studio One 3 (got it with another purchase) and when I installed and set it up, it automatically detected and setup my Behringer X-Touch.   I had a lite version of Cubase and it too detected and installed the X-Touch.  

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    #7
    VanessaJ
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/20 12:22:48 (permalink)
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    fireberd
    I've posted about the control surface setups as a suggestion before.  Sonar should be able to detect and properly install control surfaces.    I also have Studio One 3 (got it with another purchase) and when I installed and set it up, it automatically detected and setup my Behringer X-Touch.   I had a lite version of Cubase and it too detected and installed the X-Touch.  




     
    Sonar will DETECT and INSTALL the midi drivers for each device, true, but unless it's in the pre-existing 'Presets' database, Sonar won't have any kind of mapping for the individual controls. And since it's unreasonable to expect they would have presets for every single device out there, or every new one that comes on the market, they have their Cakewalk Generic Surface setup.
    What I'm experiencing is that with the 3 different control surfaces I use, I cannot get Sonar to even recognize half of those controls.
     
    I've had Sonar for over 3 years now, starting with X2, and I now have Platinum. Lot of great features, but the control surface setup has been extremely frustrating. I just can't help but wonder why the Presets list includes all of those older controllers that are no longer on the market, and none of the newer controllers that are. With the monthly updates, my point has simply been - 'is there any way to add newer control surface Presets'? For folks like me, the ACT is a laborious, and often unsuccessful, time-consuming process that gets in the way of the important matter of writing and recording.
     
    I've been wanting to get something like the X-Touch or the Mackie interface, but I'm unwilling to spend any more money on yet another controller that I know I will spend a lot of time trying to get to work, and I know I won't get full use out of. Like I said ... my focus is on making music, not diddling with software and trying to figure out programming conundrums. I MUCH prefer the ease of a hardware multitrack recording setup, but obviously it is with a good DAW that you're able to maximize the potential of a piece of music. Control surfaces are supposed to give you the perfect marriage of those two, but not if one 'partner' in that marriage isn't working fully with the other.

    "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart" ~ Confucius
     
    Sonar Platinum;  Windows 10, 16gb RAM;  Mackie Onyx Blackbird FW Interface;  4 Keyboards, 2 Native American flutes, 7 guitars, several pedals, a Roland Jazz Chorus amp, some mics, some B/W posters, a roll-y foot massager, partridge in a pear tree (and lotsa' other cool sh*t  )
    #8
    fireberd
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/20 14:52:37 (permalink)
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    True Sonar will detect the X-Touch but there's still a couple of manual steps required to be able to use it.
    Same way with my Frontier Tranzport.  Same steps as the X-Touch to be able to use it.  In Studio One 3, the first time I launched the program X-Touch was detected it installed it and it was fully operational.  I didn't have to do anything.  Same way with Cubase.
    I don't think I had the Tranzport connected when I tried Studio One 3 or Cubase, I only connect it when I'm going to use it.
     

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    #9
    azslow3
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/20 18:00:52 (permalink)
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    I agree with the wish to "autodetect" surfaces, when possible. Some "other DAWs" do that, at least for some controllers.
     
    But note that controller support in (any) DAWs is done by 2 different ways: either by device manufacturer or by users. The reality is that users of "other DAWs" are much more active in that area then in Sonar. I have not seen any "Generic Surface/ACT MIDI Sonar preset for Controller XXX" at all, unlike "new color schema...".
     
    VanessaJ
    Am I being unreasonable to simply want to plug in, push "record", and play?

    With several extra steps, but there is a way... if you buy a keyboard with Sonar support. Not without some issues, but A-Pro and LX "Record" buttons will work once the driver is installed. By chance, you have 3 keyboard but no single with Sonar support. And so it is a little bit (yes, just a little bit...) more complicated.
     
    VanessaJ
    I've been wanting to get something like the X-Touch or the Mackie interface, but I'm unwilling to spend any more money on yet another controller that I know I will spend a lot of time trying to get to work, and I know I won't get full use out of. Like I said ... my focus is on making music, not diddling with software and trying to figure out programming conundrums.

    But your alternative solution was to switch the DAW... and till you already have that other DAW, the price is at least equal to A-PRo / LX (with PT approach much more expensive).
     
    I have offered you my help, you can get any or all 3 keyboards nice working with Sonar in time comparable with reading/writing into this thread. For free. And at you wish, even with non standard features/operations you prefer. I can not make better offer, sorry
     
    You can also try to ask CW support to do this. I know, not so easy these days. And you need some luck to get someone who can (and will) do this on the other end of the wire.

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    #10
    VanessaJ
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/20 21:15:54 (permalink)
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    azslow3
     
    I have offered you my help, you can get any or all 3 keyboards nice working with Sonar in time comparable with reading/writing into this thread. For free. And at you wish, even with non standard features/operations you prefer. I can not make better offer, sorry
     
    You can also try to ask CW support to do this. I know, not so easy these days. And you need some luck to get someone who can (and will) do this on the other end of the wire.




     
    I do appreciate the offer for help. But unless you're right there next to me saying "select that option/deselect this option" I'm not sure how you would be able to help me. I know how the ACT controller works - I've spent exhaustive hours working with my different controllers. It's wonderful when it does work. But inevitably, what does work with SOME of the controls, will NOT work with some of the other controls on the same controller. Well, except for my CME and iCon keyboards in which NONE of the knobs, sliders or buttons will work. VERY maddening.
     
    What's also maddening is when you click the F1 "Help" option, what pops up is a several pages-long set of instructions, in tiny writing (I have to magnify the page to see the words better), and one of the first things you see is: "In Sonar 6.2, what you do is ... "
     
    Sonar 6.2?? REALLY?

    "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart" ~ Confucius
     
    Sonar Platinum;  Windows 10, 16gb RAM;  Mackie Onyx Blackbird FW Interface;  4 Keyboards, 2 Native American flutes, 7 guitars, several pedals, a Roland Jazz Chorus amp, some mics, some B/W posters, a roll-y foot massager, partridge in a pear tree (and lotsa' other cool sh*t  )
    #11
    azslow3
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/21 05:14:13 (permalink)
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    VanessaJ
    azslow3
    I have offered you my help, you can get any or all 3 keyboards nice working with Sonar in time comparable with reading/writing into this thread. For free. And at you wish, even with non standard features/operations you prefer. I can not make better offer, sorry
     
    You can also try to ask CW support to do this. I know, not so easy these days. And you need some luck to get someone who can (and will) do this on the other end of the wire.

    I do appreciate the offer for help. But unless you're right there next to me saying "select that option/deselect this option" I'm not sure how you would be able to help me.

    Exactly that way! I am probably x000 km away from you, but the Internet make it possible.
    You will need Skype so we can speak.
    And you will need TeamViewer so I can control your computer (you will see what I am doing and I will explain each step). In case you do not want that, you can just share your screen over Skype so I can see what you are doing and "stear" your operations, but that is going to be way slower...
     

    I know how the ACT controller works - I've spent exhaustive hours working with my different controllers. It's wonderful when it does work. But inevitably, what does work with SOME of the controls, will NOT work with some of the other controls on the same controller. Well, except for my CME and iCon keyboards in which NONE of the knobs, sliders or buttons will work. VERY maddening.

    I can explain you how to "find" controls and how to understand why you could not assign them. For "Generic Surface", for "ACT MIDI", for "AZ Controller". Then you can choose which one you want to use and we make it working. After that you should be able to modify the result / "integrate" other controller(s) in close  to no time (or at least understand when and why that is not possible).
     
    I theoretically can try to do this in threads/mails. But that will take ages for both of us.
     

    What's also maddening is when you click the F1 "Help" option, what pops up is a several pages-long set of instructions, in tiny writing (I have to magnify the page to see the words better), and one of the first things you see is: "In Sonar 6.2, what you do is ... "
     
    Sonar 6.2?? REALLY?

    Control surface integration in Sonar was not changed much since early Sonar versions (Sonar internal logic also... there are much more changes visually then internally... in any program... Linux/BSD(Mac OSX) had almost no internal logic changes during the last 20+ years, most "basics" are like 50 years old... users want to see something "new" all the time and programmers make them feel "it is new". Not only programs, most MIDI controllers are physically the same as they was 20 years ago, just with "face lifting" in terms of $1 USB controller chip, $0.01 LEDs near keys, top models with $20 controller and $10 display. An "encoder" is no more then a mouse wheel, 'normal' knob/fader is a potentiometer not far away from the device presented 170 (!) years ago, "touch sense" is a simple technology as well).
    But what any user should start reading first is the chapter 40 of Sonar Reference Guide (2000+ pages PDF file...), may be also chapter 20. As with any "Help", it is good for "quick reference" only, once general picture is clear.

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    #12
    VanessaJ
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/21 12:48:15 (permalink)
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    azslow3
     
    Exactly that way! I am probably x000 km away from you, but the Internet make it possible.
    You will need Skype so we can speak.
    And you will need TeamViewer so I can control your computer (you will see what I am doing and I will explain each step). In case you do not want that, you can just share your screen over Skype so I can see what you are doing and "stear" your operations, but that is going to be way slower...
     

     
     That sounds doable ... except I'm out on the road far from home right now and half of my equipment is in a storage unit (including that stubborn CME keyboard). I'll keep this thread referenced for when I get back home after Christmas.
     
    Thanks! :)
     

    "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart" ~ Confucius
     
    Sonar Platinum;  Windows 10, 16gb RAM;  Mackie Onyx Blackbird FW Interface;  4 Keyboards, 2 Native American flutes, 7 guitars, several pedals, a Roland Jazz Chorus amp, some mics, some B/W posters, a roll-y foot massager, partridge in a pear tree (and lotsa' other cool sh*t  )
    #13
    azslow3
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    Re: Control Surface compatibility updates? 2016/11/21 12:55:10 (permalink)
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    Just PM me when you have time. I am also not at home at the moment, but I always have my computer, at least one keyboard and the Internet connection

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