Controlling Orchestral Dynamics - What's your preference?

Hi Guitartrek

I'm answering only the last question, "...what is your preffered method?..."

Answer - Recording mod wheel volume for GPO instruments in real time.  That's the way you can feel out your music, performing it - emulating live musicians who are constantly working the dynamic possibilities of their instruments.  Tedious would have to be absolute last word I would use to describe one of the processes of putting MIDI tracks together which to me is the most exciting.

Touching up mod wheel data in the PRV is usually called for here and there, but the vast majority of what I leave in was recorded live.  The results between live playing/recording and hand drawn data can be quite dramatic.

The most efficient way isn't necessarily the fastest way.  Your music deserves all the attention it can get as you build your project.   - I've been doing this for a long time.  A 3 minute project will take me between a week (Super fast for me) and three weeks, working at it between 6 and 8 hours a day.

Randy B.

Randy - i checked out your website - quite impressive!  you are an authority on this subject for sure.

What orchestral package do you use?

i started reading up on how to draw the dynamics in, and have accepted that the process is a tedious mixture of both real-time and drawing in controller data. as if just the study of actual arranging wasn't enough..searching the net for a clear cut answer to "the best way to control dynamics" will be vague at best.. it differs from user to user. for example:  depending on ones background and particular set-up, they may use a classical term(crescendo) for trumpet swells and their method consist of drawing < >(hairpins) in a notation program..and then the other guy may assign a cc# to a exspression pedal and any one of the knobs and sliders.. its a matter of being midi savy,  and trial and error..

guitartrek


Randy - i checked out your website - quite impressive!  you are an authority on this subject for sure.

What orchestral package do you use?

Hey, thanks much, Guitartrek.

I primarily use the Garritan Libraries.  In a given project I'm apt to use all of them - GPO, COMB (Concert and Marching Band), JABB (Jazz and Big Band) and the unfortunately discontinued Garritan Stradivari and Gofriller Cello.  Those two solo strings add a lot of life to a track when layered in with the GPO strings.

It may be easier to tweak the envelopes later, and the shapes and nodes of the envelopes look better than a bunch of little controller "sticks", but you can't use a mod wheel to control the envelopes in real time.

HERE'S A TIP - and it also addresses John6528's post where he says "... wheel and drawing always introduce burps and other anomalies that are even harder to fix..."

One can right click on a MIDI track in the Track View and use envelopes to create MIDI controller data, but I find the PRV much more efficient.  There's one trick though:

--The "little controller sticks" you're referring to are the control handles which I find virtually useless.  The very upper left menu in PRV has an option to turn the control handles off.  When they're off, it's almost effortless work to draw in or fix recorded data. 

With the Grid OFF, and holding down the Ctrl key, you can sweep through with your cursor, instantly changing the shape of any kind of data you've recorded - modulation, expression, panning etc.

But with the control handles on, you can't sweep through like that. 

The only time I have control handles turned on is when editing CC64, sustain - because with the handles off, the sustain Off events are invisible!

Addressing Aleef's post about the difficulties of working MIDI data - My perspective is different because I started using MIDI way before there were sophisticated MIDI software programs, and way before there were Notation programs.  It was all hardware, and it was all about being a keyboardist and playing your instrument.  We could do some editing in our hardware sequencers, but the main thrust was recording, using every control we had - mod wheel, expression pedals etc.

Now that most of us are using software, there are many people newer to MIDI who don't seem to have a feel for the live performance aspect of MIDI recording.  It's to everyone's advantage to do the most they can with live recording of data, the way we used to do it, because the results are just more natural sounding.

Even though I've done a fair share of drawing (sweeping) in data, and I know what a live recorded piece of data looks like (much more detailed) I know that my drawn in work isn't as adequate as the nuanced data I can achieve when using pedals and wheels.

The main concept when using musical software, especially when the virtual instruments are emulations of real world acoustic instruments, is to use our imaginations and emulate how a musician actually plays his instrument.  Listen to a solo Flutist, for instance.  By feeling out what the musician is doing, we can apply that to how we record our Flute parts, complete with an almost constantly changing volume level - and keeping in mind real world details such as how long a phrase can be before a breath has to be taken.

And so forth!

Randy B.

For example the "swell" I used for all the instruments when I recorded them individually is simply too loud when I finally put all tracks together. It sounded right when I recorded one instrument, but now it is way too loud. But the soft parts are ok. Now I would like to "compress" the CC:1 data all at once (all instruments) - fast and easily so I can audition and find the right swell. But it is not easy. Maybe with more experience I will learn to avoid these mistakes. Randy obviously is at that level already.

 
 
yeah..Randy is very accomplished, he's a beast..
 
i find the swell to be very tricky, i spent a large part of the day trying it out in JABB and was unsucessful. just for a small 4 horn section on my pcr800.. i assigned cc1 and cc11 to sliders and the outcome was very abrupt volume/velocity wise... it wasnt a smooth, warm, whiney effect of something passing i was hoping for. i have yet to find any documentation or tutorial on doing the technique. im looking into getting an expression pedal to see how that works..
 

guitartrek


Randy - I like GPO - but I'm probably going to move up at a certain point.  Creating orchestrations is a huge investment in time, and now knowing that GPO isn't "standard" makes me worry a little.  I can't afford a lot of re-work if I move up. 

Thanks for the link to the thread - I wish I had been in on that one from the start, but I'm too new to this.  I'm going to try to read through as much as I can of this giant post.  I can't beleive Miroslov doesn't support keyswitching.  Creating multiple midi tracks for one instrument is for me unworkable.

But it would be nice if Sonar's PRV would show keyswitching names to the left - kind of like a Drum Map.  You could have the Keyboard display in the range of the insturment, but where an instrument would have a keymap, you would see names - and the active keyswitch would be highlighted or something.  This is just one example of the kind of standardization that is totally missing with DAW's and Orchestral packages in general.

Hello again - Got some replies/info for this post and the one from Aleef.

Once you get more comfortable using MIDI, you'll discover that for different libraries to use controllers in a different way isn't a problem.  Once you're up to speed, it takes moments to switch controller info.

BUT, the GPO instruments can respond to CC11 for volume instead of CC1.  Some people use it that way, but I prefer to use the library as it was programmed, because there are other unique things like the special Garritan Legato which is triggered by CC64.  The PDF manual has lots of info.

The keyswitches - there's no need to have them displayed by name, because they're named in the Aria interface - works for me anyway.

There's never going to be a standardization of how orchestral programs work.  Programmers have been coming up with a lot of great ideas that just take some learning and practice to use.  MIDI used to be much more standardized, with everything working the same - but it was too limiting.

But you're right that doing orchestral projects takes a lot of time.  For the sound track which demoed my stage musical, --are you ready - it took me several years to develop the recordings.

Somebody on this thread - or the Orchestral Shootout thread, said that Reason doesn't support keyswitches---That can't make sense.  Keyswitches are just silent notes.  Any sequencer will play them - and the synth responds with a program change.

Aleef, "...i find the swell to be very tricky, i spent a large part of the day trying it out in JABB and was unsucessful. just for a small 4 horn section on my pcr800.. i assigned cc1 and cc11 to sliders and the outcome was very abrupt volume/velocity wise..."

I'd like to help you out with that, because it's a really easy process.  The main problem in your attempt was that you were using both CC1 and CC11 - In Jabb, that makes for two competing volume controls.  The results would be very abrupt and awful.  You can use only one volume controller at a time.

I'm jamming to get everything done today - But I want to come back this week with some screen shots or something that will help you out.

Randy B.

Hey - Glad that illumined things, Aleef - I'm just quickly checking my emails, saw your new post.  Does this mean you can do your swells in JABB now? 

Randy B.

Glad it's been a productive day, Aleef - I'm wrapping up my replies at the Forum for tonight.  If you're getting your volume control under control now, including swells (which is just a dramatic case of volume work) I'll move doing screen shots down a bit in priority.  Time permitting, I'll still gladly do some for you if you'd like more tips.

Later!
Randy

aleef


Hey Randy!

is there a way to get better consistency in JABB. i noticed in my unison lines, i cant hear all the horns sometime, or they get very low during playback.. and on a couple of occasions the trumpets turned into a buzzing bag of hornets..

Hello again, Aleef - One thing on my agenda this morning is to put together something to help even more with the PRV topic.  I'll address your new questions too.

So I'll be back with a screen-shot and text post.  Hopefully I can get it up before noon today - it's 8:30 AM right now where I am.

Randy B.

WOWW!!!  awesome video...once again thanx Randy for sharing your knowledge  and expertise..this area was a huge stumbling block for me..

The way I often control dynamics is with automation via a CS. This is done after I have audio to work with. I use MIDI CCs for gross control of dynamics before it gets to be audio.

Randy - thanks for doing that video - that was perfect!   That confirms what I'm doing is right. I didn't know turning off the handles would do anything different but I'll try that.  Also, I never used the "pick tracks" button before - I'm going to try it. 

I see you use Aria - do you use that engine a lot? 

It's been a busy day for me with the Orchestral Shootout challenge - I hope everyone here is aware of the thread that Bitflipper started.  We're soliciting Mp3s which demonstrate what the various orchestral libraries can do with a Star Trek MIDI file.  It's really turning into a great event.

That thread can be found HERE.

Meanwhile, over here at this thread- Aleef - I'm glad the video capture I cooked up this morning seems to have helped you out.  That vid shows the basics of how to work with JABB, the other Garritan Libraries, and actually how to work with most any soft synth library, when you do some adaptation of what controllers are called for in a given situation.

You sed, "...this area was a huge stumbling block for me..."

I know from experience that you're far being alone with that, Aleef.  The manuals for Garritan do a good job of filling in this kind of information, but we all know that manuals are often over-looked.  I've helped write and edit some of those manuals, so I can say we really do try to get the info across.  But what happens is a customer buys a new library and the first thing they want to do is test it out.  When they're presented immediately with things that they need to read up on, it presents a challenge.

frankandfree - That's a neat thing you described, setting up what you call a "grip controller."  

Then it gets down to exactly What is being controlled and why.  As long as a user understands  those principles, then what you described could be really nifty and useful.  Thanks for it.

John sed, "...The way I often control dynamics is with automation via a CS. This is done after I have audio to work with. I use MIDI CCs for gross control of dynamics before it gets to be audio..."

I also end up totally in the audio realm when I'm putting together a project.  The thing you're missing out on though is a lot of the nuances in virtual instruments which can be dealt with only in the MIDI realm.  Expressive control of instruments produces a different result from audio volume work.  In many software instruments, all of the Garritan instruments, for instance, the timbre changes with the use of CC1 or CC11 control - it's not just the volume of the instrument that's being brought up or down.  At lower values, instruments will be "darker" the way they are in acoustic instruments in the Real World.  Higher values make for a brighter tone.  But when we raise the volume of audio, it's just louder or softer.  If one isn't careful, the results can sound like a volume knob being turned up and down - not exactly the most musical effect.  

jamie sed, "...Great video Randy Bowser!  I learnt some new tricks there.  Many thanks for taking the time and trouble..."

You're welcome, Jamie.  It's not such a great video really, I struggled with some technicalproblems in the production of it, but I got across what I was basically wanting to.  I really appreciate knowing that someone learned some new tricks from it. 

As I said above, that video demonstrates the very basic work of dealing with virtual instruments like JABB.  Hopefully that can set you and other people on the path of experimenting and realizing how much more is possible with MIDI.

guitartrek sed, "...Randy - thanks for doing that video - that was perfect!   That confirms what I'm doing is right. I didn't know turning off the handles would do anything different but I'll try that.  Also, I never used the "pick tracks" button before - I'm going to try that..."

Glad you also found the little video useful - Turning off the handles isn't just something to try, it's really the Only way to edit values in the PRV with ease and at a speed that feels intuitive.  If you tried to drag those stupid handles up and down for every place that needs editing - well - you'd give up before you got anywhere near where you want. 

You never picked your tracks while in PRV?--!--It's the only way to work, I'll say that definitively.  And note also, from the video, how you can select several tracks at once.  You do that by holding Shift down as you add more tracks you want to see in the list.

When you've reached a certain point of work in your MIDI tracks for a project, you want to see how they're all lining up together.  Select them all, see them all in the PRV.  And hopefully you don't quantize all the time - when you view all the tracks at once and see that some notes are ahead or behind others--that's Good!--That's the way any actually performed music is going to look.  If you see your tracks are extremely in lock with each other - then mess them up some.  I guarantee the results will sound much more musical.

You also said, "...I see you use Aria - do you use that engine a lot?..."

That's the sample player that the new GPO, COMB and JABB (all Garritana Libraries) play in, so yes, I use it when I use those libraries, because that's the only player those new versions of the programs work in.

Up-coming is a great new World Instruments library which is being programmed for Aria.  The Authorized Steinway Piano is also a fantastic library that works only in Aria.  It's the only Steinway piano sample library ever officially sanctioned by the Steinway company--It was the first instrument ported into Aria. 

So you understand - it's not as if I sought out Aria - that'Garritan's new sample player which the user doesn't have a choice about, it's the Only player the instruments work in.  Thankfully, it's chock full of features, and an excellent sample engine. 

Gary finally had Aria developed after years of hassling with Native Instruments - that's a long story I won't go into for now.

aleefef added this, "...I prematurally committing to audio to do certain things dynamically when i could of got it together in the PRV from the jump..."

Exactly.  You can make your instruments come to life with a thorough use of MIDI.  Once you've committed your tracks to audio, there's even More you can do in addition - Dynamic range can be increased, for instance.  But it's much better to have done as much work as possible MIDI before going to Audio.

THANK YOU ALL for your posts.  I've had fun looking through all your messages and replying.  

It's very good to know that my little video effort was of some help.

Randy B.
 

John
I am very aware of that Randy and thank you for stating it. I was simply dealing here with dynamics. I don't view it as something that needs a lot of editing. Nuance is not what dynamics are all about. Its either loud or soft. LOL

Hi, John - You are very hip, knowledgeable kind of home recordist kind of guy.  I wasn't writing my post in response to you per se.  I was using your post as an opportunity to explain some things to people of less experience than you.

As a moderator at the Garritan Forum, what I'll see is like this - a new user posting some music and asking, "Why doesn't this sound as good as the demos?"  I'll look at their work, and I'll see flat-lined velocity levels (most likely inserted note by note with a mouse) and virtually no MIDI controller work.  And they'll wonder why the instruments aren't sounding as musical as recordings made by more experienced users whose files are crammed with MIDI controllers.

We all develop our own ways of working, and we pass on what we can based on our experience.  Advice from every more advanced "guru" type user is going to be different, because of what they've decided is a good way to work, and what is more important than other things.

My projects take a good chunk of time, because I spend a lot of time in both realms - MIDI, then Audio.  I know from my own trials and errors over the years that if I neglect work in the MIDI realm, it's never going to be "fixed in the mix" to my satisfaction as well as when I've used all the MIDI controllers available in the first place.  Hence my advice.

Nuance is Precisely what dynamics are all about.  It's not all Loud and Soft-- I know you were simplifying, but when using a thoughtfully programmed library like the ones Garritan produces, there is so much one can do with MIDI which is beyond what can be done working strictly with Audio generated from MIDI.  Neglecting to use the special Garritan legato, for instance, makes tracks sound like they were made from old school synths which always triggered the full attack envelope, instead of melding the legato passage into a fluid thing the way Garritan instruments can sound when properly used.  It takes time to insert all those CC64 events - but every mouse click is worth the results. 

There have been times when I've needed to fix my own laziness - There'll be a passage which needed more Expressive control when the data was still MIDI, and I'll try to fix it by automating EQ on the Audio track.  It's a second best work-around, and never as good as it could have been.

And so forth.

I strongly feel the best advice to people asking questions like in the subject line of this thread, is to get to know their MIDI instruments as deeply as they can.  That way they'll make the most of their soft synths, rather than reducing them to triggered sounds which one then tries to fix strictly in the Audio mix.

Randy B. - only temporarily stepping off his MIDI soap box. 

Hello again, Guitartrek -I know what you mean - it's constantly interesting to see different approaches to the same tasks that people develop. 

By the way, with handles turned off, drawing new events with Ctr held down also erases the old events.  The addition of handles to PRV events seems to have a user request some time ago, and I'm sure some people find them somehow useful.  I just find it trickier to draw data with them on.  Like in an early part of that video I posted, you can see how easy it is to draw complex curves - and they can be done with handles on too, they just seem to make the job clumsier, the way you can accidentally grab a single handle by mistake.

Randy B.