Copyright question - Hymns

Some of the Christian music experts on this forum may be able to help here.
 
I am currently working on initial ideas for a song about the death of my Great Great Grandfather and his crew in a collision at sea in 1881 and I am considering using a few bars of the Hymn "Eternal Father Strong to Save" which seems appropriate to the subject matter.  It looks like the tune was composed by John B Dykes in 1861, given that it is 156 years old I assume its out of copyright.
 
I am also toying with the idea including a few bars of "Abide with me" written slightly earlier. It has a strong local  local connection, The writer of the words, Rev Henry Francis Lyte was vicar in the local church and my Great Great Grandfather and Grandmother may have even heard him preach when they were young.
 
 

don't assume that just because it's written 156 years ago that it's not still copyrighted - you're PROBABLY correct, but there are some older hymns which still have copyright on from the family of the writer.
 
check here:
http://www.pdinfo.com/
 
looks like both "Eternal Father Strong to Save" and "Abide with me" show that they are PD from the search on that site.
 
sounds like a cool project for your great great grandfather!  hope it turns out well!
 
 

eph221
Don't ask a jazz player or a comic. They copy everything

Jealous.

From the PD site, the header in one of the frames in the presentation on the first page says:
 
Public Domain Music
Music and lyrics published in 1922 or earlier are in the public domain in the USA.
No one can claim ownership of a song in the public domain, therefore public domain songs can be freely used with no fees or royalties payable to anyone.
 
This sounds all-inclusive. The caveat here (at least, I would have thought this was potentially an issue), however, is that both of the mentioned hymns are British in origin. OTOH, since they are listed as public domain on the site, as Beagle sagely notes, they are safe (at least in the US?). Also from the PD site:
 
International Copyright 
There is no such thing as "International Copyright". You must comply with the copyright laws of each separate country where you use music or lyrics. Copyright protection in most countries other than the USA expires 70 years after the death of the last surviving author.   In Canada, copyright protection expires 50 years after the death of all authors. 
 
This would seem to imply that country of origin bears no pressure on the copyright laws for each country; what is determinative is simply the date of death for the author. This really does sound like a wonderful project. You may want to search out some of the other less familiar verses written for "Eternal Father Strong to Save". There have been many, adapted for various groups and needs. Wikipedia has a bunch of them: 
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Father,_Strong_to_Save
 

ok - here's an example.  I'll Fly Away was written in 1929 and published in 1932.  even if you use the published date, it's over 70 years old.  but if you search in the pdinfo.com site, you'll see it's not there.  a cursory search on harryfox.com will show that it is indeed still under copyright by Warner-Tamerlane publishing co.  
 
I don't know how this happens, but there are still songs which are more than 70 years old in the US which still are under copyright protection and not admitted to the PD.

outland144k

Beagle
ok - here's an example.  I'll Fly Away was written in 1929 and published in 1932.  even if you use the published date, it's over 70 years old.  but if you search in the pdinfo.com site, you'll see it's not there.  a cursory search on harryfox.com will show that it is indeed still under copyright by Warner-Tamerlane publishing co.  
 
I don't know how this happens, but there are still songs which are more than 70 years old in the US which still are under copyright protection and not admitted to the PD.

 
Beagle, it's 70 years after the death of the author, not 70 years after the song was written. While he wrote the song in 1929, Albert Brumley died in 1977, hence the copyright is still active. 

DOH!  you're right!  
 
 
bad dog!!! bad dog!!!  :D

dmbaer

outland144k
Beagle, it's 70 years after the death of the author, not 70 years after the song was written. While he wrote the song in 1929, Albert Brumley died in 1977, hence the copyright is still active. 

The one case I'm familiar with conflicts with the notion that it's based upon the death of the author.  All of Pucinni's operas except the last one are now in public domain.  This was as of maybe eight years ago, so perhaps they now all are.  This is in the US, by the way.  But if a late work is not PD and earlier works are, then that would strongly suggest the author's death is not the sole determining factor.
 
 
Edit: It just occurred to me that the final opera was never completed by Pucinni.  A student of his (or something like that) finished the final few of minutes.  That might explain why that one opera still held copyright.  The guy who finished, who counts as one of the composers, probably died quite a bit later.

 
Franco Alfano, who finished Puccini's last opera Turandot, died October 27, 1954 (Wikipedia). This means that Puccini's last opera will not be in the Public Domain until 2024.
 
Bingo, DM.

eph221

dmbaer

outland144k
Beagle, it's 70 years after the death of the author, not 70 years after the song was written. While he wrote the song in 1929, Albert Brumley died in 1977, hence the copyright is still active. 

The one case I'm familiar with conflicts with the notion that it's based upon the death of the author.  All of Pucinni's operas except the last one are now in public domain.  This was as of maybe eight years ago, so perhaps they now all are.  This is in the US, by the way.  But if a late work is not PD and earlier works are, then that would strongly suggest the author's death is not the sole determining factor.
 
 
Edit: It just occurred to me that the final opera was never completed by Pucinni.  A student of his (or something like that) finished the final few of minutes.  That might explain why that one opera still held copyright.  The guy who finished, who counts as one of the composers, probably died quite a bit later.

Was it puccini's 10th?  

 According to The Harvard Biographical Dictionary of Music, Puccini wrote twelve operas. Turandot was the last.

Thanks for the replies, As far as I can tell they are public domain. It probably won't be much of an issue anyway as I doubt the track will reach much of an audience but if it turns out really well I thought about selling it for donations to the RNLI (UK lifeboat charity).

eph221
I take meds for decaphobia

You can certainly rest easier tonight. Let's just hope that your condition doesn't spread into dodecaphobia.

Glyn Barnes
Thanks for the replies, As far as I can tell they are public domain. It probably won't be much of an issue anyway as I doubt the track will reach much of an audience but if it turns out really well I thought about selling it for donations to the RNLI (UK lifeboat charity).

\

In the UK PRS/MCPS are the people to talk to about copyright and licewnsing. Bear in mind a work being out of copyright doesn't mean you might not need an MCPS license to release it in recorded, download or broadcast form. That includes your own stuff, by the way.

If you're an arranger or writer PRS/MCPS can be worth joining, even if "arranging" means playing your own version of an old blues song. Amongst other things, if you play in a PRS licensed venue (and outside private parties all places that put on music should be) you can even make a claim from PRS for performance royalties for performing your own material. It's not much per song or gig, but it's there for the taking if you're entitled to it.

Membership also makes it much harder for someone to record a song of yours and credit it to themselves or "traditional"/"anon".