Helpful ReplyCore Parking

Windows 7, Turbo enabled, HPET disabled test project running for 12 hours at 32 buffers.  Maximum DPC latency spike overnight 438us.

Same test project, same test settings HPET enabled.  Would not run at 32 buffers, minor crackling at 48 so run at 64 buffers.  Maximum DPC spike 2,600 + us after 45 minutes.  Retested 2308 us reported again after a few minutes, final try also ended in me not bothering further.

Which would you choose?

32 buffers on the Quad comes out at 3.52 ms @44,100k RTL measured by Centrance over USB 2, 5.1 ms reported in Sonar.

Who said the Quad wasn't low latency?...

yo jonbouy

did you read the thread i posted earlier?

jm24


yo jonbouy

did you read the thread i posted earlier?

Indeed I did, I've also come across it before.

I can understand Scott's frustration with this thread but at least we have two things going on here.  One is that Eric has posted from a position of being more than just a technical enthusiast and here we are (or should be) exclusively concentrating on DAW performance.

WRT to the Core Parking issues I find it hilarious that much of the research and suggestion that it should be turned of initially was done by Scott and pertaining only to Sonar and older chipsets (he provided a link to a thread where he proposed these ideas that many have since stuck with regardless of the fact things have moved on).  Now advocates of that now outdated idea are sticking to much of what Scott originally proposed, he's been saying for some while now since 1155 boards don't need to mess with turning all that stuff off turning HPET off in itself mitigates much of the problems originally caused, and now those same people are not listening.

There's no doubt in my mind because I base my findings in what I'm doing merely related to the Audio applications, OS and drivers I'm using currently, rather than basing it on some theoretical ideal that I've imagined.

That is to leave Core Parking, Hyperthreading, Speed Step, Turbo and C-States all enabled and merely turn off HPET base a Power Plan in Window on the High Performance on and turn off all the hibernation crap and you'll be getting the most from your CPU running higher performance at lower temperatures and get the best low latency performance from your particular interface.

"Jonbouy"
Sorry, I must dash I gotta go and impress my GF with my DPC latency figures...oh my.

"Jonbouy"
Windows 7, Turbo enabled, HPET disabled test project running for 12 hours at 32 buffers. Maximum DPC latency spike overnight 438us. 

Same test project, same test settings HPET enabled. Would not run at 32 buffers, minor crackling at 48 so run at 64 buffers. Maximum DPC spike 2,600 + us after 45 minutes. Retested 2308 us reported again after a few minutes, final try also ended in me not bothering further.

"Jonbouy"
Because it would be against the TOS for him to refer to the person in question that way.

Yet the other guy seems to be able to be consistently annoying for the sake of it with impunity. And for that matter how are you entitled to shoot your mouth off to another member with a personal insult?

Reference :: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2390503

"Jonbouy"
I've never seen the forum in the state it's currently in where pretty much every thread is reduced to rubble where at one time there used to be reasoned debate. Sides used to be taken on point not personalities.

Reference :: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2390520

"Jonbouy"
The art that is lacking here lately is to engage in the actual point not what you've judged the person making to it be like. That's just called prejudice.

Reference :: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2390556

"Jonbouy"
Some people obviously have felt threatened by my doing that though judging by some of the real nastiness that's been directed at me the last few days, which I find strange and a bit disconcerting.

Reference :: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2390609

And my favorite one...

"Jonbouy"
I don't recall ever having a desire to villify anybody on this board, I'd like to have the same courtesy extended toward me.

Is that a big ask?

Reference :: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2391083

What was that about mirrors and whines again, Jon?

Reiterated for clarity's sake... (from my post #32 in this thread)

"Alegria"
The fact that I'm demanding of the tools I chose to work with has nothing to do with religion, shrines and rhymes. The fact that you also use your machine for non-audio related tasks, makes it much more difficult/unwise/impossible for you to optimize/streamline/tweak your machine as I would mine. The fact that you overclock your machine, albeit reasonably, makes it unwise for you to turn off core parking. It's all about choice, I completely agree. And these facts don't make you or me bigger/longer/holier than the other, matey. We obviously have different needs and budget to meet those needs.

"Jonbouy"
That probably wouldn't concern you though as usually you'd need freinds or colleagues in order to partake in a collaboration...

That's something you know nothing about outside of these forums and my wife and my kids are my friends, that's all I need. Anything else is..., a bonus if it's meant to be. And if I knew someone that had no friends, I would be the first one in line to offer my friendship, such as I did with "jimmy". But only to find out that he was someone else's imaginary construct. But just like you, I didn't donate.

From this thread: http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1075781-tweak-enable-hpet-in-bios-and-os-for-better-performance-and-fps/

""By default Windows 7 uses different timers in the CPU to calculate stuff. HPET is the newest and best of these timers, but because of default combination of timers it takes longer time for CPU to keep up all the timers and sync between them. Forcing Windows to use HPET only improves performance and leads to greater FPS.



TSC+LAPICs Low performance (slow timers + syncing) = 2.76MHz
LAPICs low performance (slow timer - no syncing) = 3.5Mhz
TSC+HPET medium performance (slow and fast timer + syncing) = 3.8Mhz
HPET high performance (fast timer - no syncing) = 14.3MHz

Run the WinTimerTester 1.1 to see your QueryPerformanceFrequency
Then try with HPET, you'll be amazed.
""

It seems clear to me the interaction of these timers will degrade performance.

How does this not make sense?

j

It makes perfect sense but it isn't what is wanted here.  HPET is working very well and performing more interrupts to the CPU for power management functions.
 
When we have the HPET time enabled these devices are constantly interrupting the CPU likely for PPM policy requests.
 
Instead of keep posting the same link which contains no information on it, re-read this bit that does.
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2647881

JB: thank you for your patience and guidance.

Yo all of yous others: great exploration.

My summary:

Disabling HPET helps to obviate the impact of mal-coded drivers.

Setting windows power settings to high performance (with some tweaks) will reduce the impact of C state changes and core parking,...

If ALL drivers were properly coded, and we could disable all power reducing aspects of these drivers, using only HPET for timing would be prolly be the best choice.

j

Yo all of yous others: great exploration.

 
Yes it was a great exploration, and some pretty useful stuff from the guys at ADK.  It was a pity it turned into playground as there is some really good insights among the mud-slinging.
I think it is a real shame when we get input from some highly respected DAW builders that are dealing with this kind of thing daily on various systems for many users and they share their knowledge with us, only to have some point scoring smart alec's trying to big themselves up by being disrespectful, ignorant and contrary for the sake of it.
Thing is Windows isn't a dedicated DAW platform so we have to make the best use of it and give the dedicated Audio parts of it (like ASIO) the best chance possible against the underlying themes that Windows imposes such as networking and power management.
 
It's always about the best compromise.  And allowing turbo to run for performance sake and HPET disabled to mitigate the problems caused by other hardware drivers interrupts is easily the best way to go for the most power and effective low latency.  The testing is simple, as the differences are pretty obvious.

Jonbouy

 

 
I think it is a real shame when we get input from some highly respected DAW builders that are dealing with this kind of thing daily on various systems for many users and they share their knowledge with us, only to have some point scoring smart alec's trying to big themselves up by being disrespectful, ignorant and contrary for the sake of it.

 
 
I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Though it may or may not be true in some cases (so I don't totally disagree, lol). But I have a different opinion.
 
I don't think a DAW builders advice or word should just be followed blindly. I think they should be questioned sometimes. Though they are helpful and offer some definitive answers sometimes. So their opinion certainly carries a lot of weight.
 
 
But, I think an individuals use and needs have to be taken into account. And they often aren't with blanket statements and advice.
 
For example, (and this could have changed) I know the guy from Studio Cat recommends taking around an actual desktop to gigs. I read where he takes a desktop with a monitor in some sort of suitcase. That to me is just ridiculous. A laptop is way better for that purpose. Like by miles. Conveniently enough, he doesn't sell laptops (again that may have changed). So I got to wonder about that recommendation, for me personally. (BTW, I'm not implying any dishonesty, just saying he's out of touch with my needs on that one).
 
 
But if I question that am I disrespectful? No, I just have different individual needs.
 
 
And with the ADK guy, I see him all over the internet. He is very helpful, but often very rude and condescending. That makes enemies and its a poor way to conduct yourself in business. Just my opinion, and clearly he has lots of sales and supporters, so wth do I know. But for me, I wouldn't buy from him due to how he conducts himself. Professionalism goes a long way with me. And given the many options out there, I'd rather spend my $ on someone with a more professional and less hostile attitude (though really I'd just rather build it myself and save the $ for some other gear or software). Honestly, he comes off like a bully sometimes and that scares me off to wanting to deal with him. It also makes people disrespectful towards him.  Dish it ..better be ready to take it.  But again, just my opinion.
 
 
Also, I've noticed some of the parts recommendations DAW makers make are based on how well they interact with UAD cards or firewire devices. Or how well the companies that supply the parts handle returns. Or what they consider to be "professional" needs. All good things to consider, but not the end all be all. Someone else may be able to have a fantastic system not following any of their recommendations because they have different needs.
 
I often see responses like "just call studio cat" or "just call ADK". But I don’t often see more probing questions to determine if that could be overkill and needlessly expensive to someone. Its almost like a little fraternity that just keeps pushing people into buying stuff off their buddies. That’s how comes it off to me anyway. So I wonder about people that make those recommendations. Some jsut blatantly seem like they are getting kick backs of some kind.  The individuals particular way of working or needs are often not explored further.
 
 
Anyway, ( and I realize how touchy everyone gets here!) I don't mean any disrespect. Just saying there are other points of view and opinions.

Well said Mandrake and I also appreciate your clear vision and respectful delivery. And I'm convinced you're not the only one sharing the opinion you have just laid out. Thank you for taking the time to do so. 

"jm24"
If ALL drivers were properly coded, and we could disable all power reducing aspects of these drivers, using only HPET for timing would be prolly be the best choice.

I completely agree and have done so, with great results. And since I have other machines that I use for everyday non-audio related tasks, in my case this was possible.

@Mandrake
 
I totally agree with your entire post.
 
That is contributing to the debate, and I certainly don't follow anyone blindly.
 
However I was refering to what actually happened to this thread in particular and the trolling mostly from one reknowned and ill-informed individual that was insisting on advocating tweaks that have long since been shown to have no bearing other than to impair the performance of your machine.
 
Sure you can disable core parking but losing 12% of your performance by losing your stock turbo capability isn't really a recommendation for anybodies needs.  Turning off all that Core Parking, Speedstep, C-States stuff incurs a penalty in performances whatever you are doing because it will limit your chip to it's standard multiplier and disable turbo, the upside you get fewer willd DPC peaks.  With HPET off and the rest re-enabled you lose the spkes gain your performance back and run much cooler.  This is the case for anyone running an ASIO driver at low-latency on a current Windows box.
 
All anyone has to do is test to realise it is true.  On this issue, for anyone running a music application via an ASIO driver, Scott is so right it should be pinned as a handy hint rather than debated.
 
btw on the portability front if you are touring and your gigs depend on it, I'd recommend a rack-mounted desktop over a laptop too...  If you are just doing small gigs out of the car a laptop will be fine as you are normally in an intimate enough position with your audience to explain what went wrong...

"JonBouy"
However I was refering to what actually happened to this thread in particular and the trolling mostly from one reknowned and ill-informed individual that was insisting on advocating tweaks that have long since been shown to have no bearing other than to impair the performance of your machine.

Continuously repeating yourself with less than accurate comments (and I am being polite) doesn't make it so). But it does reveal the frailty of your position. Maybe you should use bigger sized fonts and upper-case characters to bully your point across? Better still, have a closer look at what's happening in this thread, according to your own words. 

"Jonbouy"

The art that is lacking here lately is to engage in the actual point not what you've judged the person making to it be like. That's just called prejudice.

Reference :: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2390556

Addition :: Quote at the top of this post.

Alegria

"jm24"

If ALL drivers were properly coded, and we could disable all power reducing aspects of these drivers, using only HPET for timing would be prolly be the best choice.

I completely agree and have done so, with great results. And since I have other machines that I use for everyday non-audio related tasks, in my case this was possible.

 
 
 
Is it possible to disable the power bits of all the drivers?
 
I have always wondered if setting the "screen saver," hard disk spin down, computer sleep/hibernate,... actually disables the timers or just the triggers.
 
What I infer from JB, JSC, and others' comments, is the power-adjusting timers are integral to the drivers, and therefore cannot be disabled. So the power related timers for the video card, usb, pcie,... repeatedly remind the OS to effect the selected trigger. The faster HPET clock decreases the interval of this action, and the reminding happens more often resulting in more spikes per period of time. Disabling HPET reduces the number of spikes by reducing the clock speed.
 
 
I assume the various clocks we are referring to do more than just provide reference to the many power related timers. If not, why cannot all the reference clocks be disabled? Prolly cuz the timers would complain.
 
If disabling the "screen saver,...." actually stops the timers then stopping the clock removes another active non-useful process.
 
 
(And: disabling the C states, and speed step, are no longer necessary with the newest chips.)
 
JB has found, for his hardware combination, that disabling ONLY HPET reduces the affects of all the power stuff with one-swell-foop. Yet does allow the machine to reduce power use when not used for audio.
 
Allegria has found, for his hardware combination, that changing all power options to disabled and using ONLY the HPET clock provides the best performance for a box "dedicated" to the specific use of audio production. 
 
-------------------
 
I have been supporting windows computers for a few dozen clients for about 20 years. For these clients I only disable sleep mode and then adjust hibernate as needed.
 
(Sleep mode is stupid to me. And have had way too many problems with it.)
 
Even after all these years, I have limited knowledge of what is actually happening at the machine level. My focus has been on the users' need to get work done without the computer interfering.
 
My interest is squeezing every bit of performance from the machine which is "dedicated" to noise recording. I have always stopped auto-updating stuff, and disabling the OS power stuff.
 
The new motherboard, Black Edition 4 core chip, and ram, has many options that yearn for attention. Hence my interest in the topic, and the comments, of this thread.
 
j
 
 
 
 

>>And with the ADK guy, I see him all over the internet. He is very helpful, but often very rude and condescending.
 
Being a curmudgeon does not correspond to a lack of knowledge. These guys definitely have more experience with more hardware configurations than anybody who does not do the same kind of work.
 
Do their products perform as described? Do they support the products the sell?  This is all that matters.
>> I often see responses like "just call studio cat" or "just call ADK".
 
This is the advice given as a recommendation to those who know little, and are likely to not really be interested in the machine, other than to record their noises.
 
I was very fortunate 20+ years ago to be directed to a great car repair shop. I no longer wanted to be responsible for fixing and maintaining my vehicles. These guys want to fix cars. And I want them to.
 
Same with computers for most people.
 
j

"jm24"
These guys definitely have more experience with more hardware configurations than anybody who does not do the same kind of work.

I never disputed that fact. And I would go so far as to say that I would not hesitate to follow Scott's or Jim's advice on the choice of a motherboard for example (as that is one of the most important factors along with the chipset in getting a solid head start on managing/lowering DPC latency). But the gist of this thread was my disagreement with Scott's blanket statement about HPET. I don't agree that it applies to everyone without exception (certainly not to me and others in a similar scenario).

"jm24"
This is the advice given as a recommendation to those who know little, and are likely to not really be interested in the machine, other than to record their noises.

And I also have recommended the same in the past. This is common sense. But the right question have to be asked to begin with..., such as:

"Alegria"
If we're going to get into specifics, I (we) need a bit more info such as:

1] What's your budget (an approximation will do)?
2] Is this budget flexible?
3] How silent do you want this machine to be?
4] What sample libraries are you using, if any... (eg. EWQL Hollywood series, Ominisphere, Trillian)?
5] Would you consider yourself a tweaker/geek or more of an artist that can't be bothered with such things?

Reference :: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2638398

You can also notice in that particular thread how it flows with good and pertinent information. Also, notice how Jim intervenes in a non-confrontational way to set things straight with the graphic card. This is the beauty of a peer-to-peer forum when not having to deal with chest pounding "I know it all" attitudes.

Yo Allegria

My comments were addressed to Mandrake's comments. Not to discount your response.

=======

Re: the OP:  I am still confused about the original topic:

"" JB:  Turning off all that Core Parking, Speedstep, C-States stuff incurs a penalty in performances whatever you are doing because it will limit your chip to it's standard multiplier and disable turbo "

This seems to be the main point of contention. Sorta:

JB:::
"""
Windows 7, Turbo enabled, HPET disabled test project running for 12 hours at 32 buffers. Maximum DPC latency spike overnight 438us.

Same test project, same test settings HPET enabled. Would not run at 32 buffers, minor crackling at 48 so run at 64 buffers. Maximum DPC spike 2,600 + us after 45 minutes. Retested 2308 us reported again after a few minutes, final try also ended in me not bothering further.
"""

In the 2nd test did you disable all power related BIOS and OS items? If not this is not a fair comparison.

But: your interest in using the power saving features is not without value.

-----------------

For grins: I enabled AMD cool and quiet on my main business computer. It went to sleep and would not awaken with a hard boot. This is a 3 year old motherboard. Prolly just tired.

.......

It would be way nice to have a reference test project we all could use, given the millions of hardware combinations and settings,  that could provide a clear reference point.

Too many variables.


-----------------

Laptop: Dedust the fan/heatsink regularly. Put a good cooler under it.

j

jm24


>>And with the ADK guy, I see him all over the internet. He is very helpful, but often very rude and condescending.
 
Being a curmudgeon does not correspond to a lack of knowledge. These guys definitely have more experience with more hardware configurations than anybody who does not do the same kind of work.
 
Do their products perform as described? Do they support the products the sell?  This is all that matters.
>> I often see responses like "just call studio cat" or "just call ADK".
 
This is the advice given as a recommendation to those who know little, and are likely to not really be interested in the machine, other than to record their noises.
 
I was very fortunate 20+ years ago to be directed to a great car repair shop. I no longer wanted to be responsible for fixing and maintaining my vehicles. These guys want to fix cars. And I want them to.
 
Same with computers for most people.
 
j

 
I disagree that all that matters is the product. To me at least. Just my opinion, as I've stated, but that ADK guy's attitude is a turn off to me, in terms of me even buying anything from him. Maybe attitude and professionalism doesn't matter to some. But to me it matters quite a bit. But, like I also said, I realize he is helpful and well respected by many. Still, many people on peer to peer forums are very helpful and they aren't selling anything. Not picking on the guy. Just my opinion, as I've said.
 
 
and oy vey with the car analogies! lol. Cars and computers are not the same thing at all. A car needs specialized, expensive tools, lots of knowledge (far more than putting together a computer), its dirty, and if you don't' know what your doing you can end up stranded or dead. Its also very expensive. Parts and labor. I just got quoted $600 to repair my a/c. I can build a latest greatest computer for a little more than that. So its not the same thing.
 
 
Besides, if someone asks a question on how to restring their guitar, is the best answer to say, "just got to guitar center"? Or if they want to record at home.."just go to a studio"? That's how I see a lot of those recommendations.
 
 
In my opinion, its more sensible to learn your instruments. And for better or worse, we are married to our computers ( I love mine). Sure there is a learning curve. There is learning curve to Sonar and playing any instrument. And that learning curve is much higher than putting together a computer. Still, I understand the desire to not f around with it and have someone else do it for you. I've had them done for me before too. But in the end, I felt like I should have done it myself and saved the cash.
 
 
Maybe some get some peace of mind by hiring someone to build a computer. But there are drawbacks too. Expense is one. But also, what happens if there is an issue and it needs repair? You have to pack it up (real well) and ship it off (hoping the UPS guy isn't kicking it around, lol). Wait for it to get there. Get repaired. Be sent back...at best this is a week you are out. Probably more if they have to wait for the parts or are bz. Plus the expense and risk of the shipping. Better to just go to frys or microcenter and do it yourself ASAP, IMHO.
 
 
But again, these are just some of the drawbacks that I see, for me personally. And why I don't always think its the best option to recommend. But sometimes it is. Especially if you've got the $ for it. I just don't think making the blind recomdation is always the best advice.
 
And Algeria already stated perfectly why.
 
 
Anyway, what's wrong with asking a little more probing questions first before just doing the "just call adk or studi cat" thing? Maybe it's the best option for someone. Or maybe its, like I said, over-kill and needlessly expensive for someone. I think to give good advice, you need to find out a little more about the individual's needs.
 
 
But again, lol, not trying to fight or be disrespectful. Just my opinion.

One of the stupidest comments I have read, and repeatedly read, is the recommendation that a novice should purchase the speakers/monitors that sound good to them, in a store environment that contains lots of other speakers, and drums,....

Way stupid. Since they know nothing they should NOT depend upon their uneducated ears. They need guidance.

Knowing how to USE a computer is not related to knowing how to configure, modify, update a computer. Many users think they know cuz they can figger how to change the desktop picture.

Most musicians will never have a clue about a computer's workings. And should not be expected to.

The car analogy is apropos. I know enough to understand what my car guys tell me about the bits and pieces to ask reasonable questions. Most people do not.

And I will not do the actual work.

One of the most common problems I am currently responding to of late is the idiocy of Java, Adobe,.. installing virus scanners by default. And since most users DO NOT KNOW HOW TO READ, they install these non-essential applications.

So they call me complaining that their computers are slow, and hang,... because 3 AV programs are running. And the browsers have 13 search bars,....

I clean the machine. I am patient. I explain. I teach. Very few learn. Cuz they are most interested in doing business, not learning about computer maintenance. As they should be.

The say Picasso was a major ****. Would you refuse a gift of his work?

If the audio-computer builders hired "beards" to address the public you would have no idea about their behavior. But because you know they do not "suffer fools lightly" means you will not ever purchase one of their products? You gonna make sure you always will know where they work, and what they do?

I absolutely know that the majority of applicances in your house are made by organiztions that employ lots of ****s. I figger ya got a micro, toaster,...

I am surmising you are young. You will learn to be less judgemental. More tolerant.

Or else not.

j

j

>>>>>One of the stupidest comments I have read, and repeatedly read, is the recommendation that a novice should purchase the speakers/monitors that sound good to them, in a store environment that contains lots of other speakers, and drums,....
Way stupid. Since they know nothing they should NOT depend upon their uneducated ears. They need guidance. <<<<<<
 
 
I've never read that anywhere.  I always read about taking them to the listening environment and playing reference cd's you are very familiar.
But no one is talking about monitors.  Is the connection you are making that people, in your opinion,  are stupid?
 
 
>>>>Knowing how to USE a computer is not related to knowing how to configure, modify, update a computer. <<<<<<
 
Configure?  what... turn off a few services,  delete (and don't instal) certain programs, disable a few thing?  doesn't require much skill to do that.  Modify? modify what? add a new hard drive or ram?  Add a sound card or whatever? piece of cake.  Update?  easiest of all.  Really its not that hard at all.  Inconvenient maybe. And the need to do so is less and less as computer power grows.   Trying to scare people into thinking it is so difficult that only an expert can do it is wrong, in my view.  I'd like to  remove the curtain and empower people.  Not make a sale for my buddies or people I like.  
 
I mean unless im a genius (a strong possibility if my mother is to be believed lol),  this stuff is butt simple.  A learning curb yes.  But like I said, less than the one for learning Sonar or playing an instrument or music theory....or mixing..
 
 
>>>>>Many users think they know cuz they can figger how to change the desktop picture. <<<<
 
I really have not seen that and that is a very condescending view.
 
>>>>Most musicians will never have a clue about a computer's workings. And should not be expected to. <<<
 
 
Again is because you think they are too stupid?  What are these mysterious "inner workings"?  Its kind of a set it and forget it unless you'd rather spend your time with testing and "optimizing".  A fun hobby but I'd rather make music with my computer.  The day is here finally! Computers are now way powerful enough to accomplish just about any vision.
 
>>>The car analogy is apropos. I know enough to understand what my car guys tell me about the bits and pieces to ask reasonable questions. Most people do not. <<<
Again (I type that a lot!) , I disagree that cars and computers analogies are "apropos".  See above as to why.  No need to repeat.
>>>>>One of the most common problems I am currently responding to of late is the idiocy of Java, Adobe,.. installing virus scanners by default. And since most users DO NOT KNOW HOW TO READ, they install these non-essential applications.
So they call me complaining that their computers are slow, and hang,... because 3 AV programs are running. And the browsers have 13 search bars,....
I clean the machine. I am patient. I explain. I teach. Very few learn. Cuz they are most interested in doing business, not learning about computer maintenance. As they should be. <<<<
 
 
This sounds like some rant born out of working in a support capacity.  And it sounds like a lot of exaggerating.  Of course that's what you deal with all day being in support.  So that,  IMHO,  clouds your judgment.  You don't get calls from people that are just fine and dandy. 
Plus it sounds like you really think people are stupid.
 
>>>The say Picasso was a major ****. Would you refuse a gift of his work? <<<
 
 
This one really made me laugh.  Picasso??  You think putting together a computer from the same exact parts anyone else can buy is like a world renown, legendary genius?  Boy I've heard of fan boys but you win the prize.  A Picasso is worth millions.  A 10 y/o computer (that prob cost $3-5 K when sold) is worth $100 now, at best.  And no, I would not refuse a Picasso.  lol.
 
>>>>If the audio-computer builders hired "beards" to address the public you would have no idea about their behavior. But because you know they do not "suffer fools lightly" means you will not ever purchase one of their products? You gonna make sure you always will know where they work, and what they do? <<<
 
 
See, there is that condescending thing. Whats wrong with responding in a professional manner?  That's the foolish part cause its a loss of $ and makes enemies when a simple little bit of professionalism would calm the waters. And fools? I've seen some very knowledgeable and well written counters to your Picasso.
 
 
>>>>I absolutely know that the majority of applicances in your house are made by organiztions that employ lots of ****s. I figger ya got a micro, toaster,..<<<<
So lets all just rollover and take it?   Or, a different approach would be to support people and things we feel are better for the world or just better for ourselves.  I don't want to support someone like your Picasso.  See my earlier posts for why.  Just my opinion though.  I realize you have a different one. 
 
>>>>I am surmising you are young. You will learn to be less judgemental. More tolerant.
Or else not.
j
j <<<<
 
Ahh the old tactic of a personal attack.  To me, when someone resorts to this,  they are on the losing end of the argument.  It's a desperation tactic.
Anyway...
Less judgmental and more tolerant?  Of a rude, condescending, and hostile computer maker?  Too many options out there to reward that.
 
 
But his has gone farther than what I am interested in spending my time doing. 
 
 My point is that the advice of the expert is often good and worth considering.  But it's not always the best or even definitive advice in all situations.  Thats all the point I was really trying to make. 

btw..I really want to point out that I'm not attacking anyone. I'm sure ADK and others make excellent products.  I was just pointing that there are other points of view. 

well i said i was done with this thread but evidently not.

mandrake,
i am a pretty busy guy, and post in several forums, due to this my posts are short, blunt and to the point. i dont have time to sugar coat it, or be polically correct. (not that i care anyway about politically correct)
i am not here for a popularity party what you see is what you get.
and i dont have to explain myself. funny about ever 6 months someone like you pops up..

1) i dont have to post on forums to help people and i do a lot of helping. even you have said as much.

2nd there is a huge amount of false and or bad info given on forums i am constantly having to deal with mis-information.
this thead is a good example.
i dont get ornery until i have to repeat myself 3 times or get attacked. (niether ever happens.. right)

you can take my advice or leave it, up to you. how i deliver it should be mostly irreleveant, at least to a point.

yet here you are doing what i am accused of? thats hillarious dude..
and if you think for a minute i am losing money due to my posts guess again.

we always ask to the client "how did you find us" we get 3 answers (we dont advertise at all period)
1) a friend refered me
2) internet search
3) forum postings/forum referrals

3 is the most common with 1 behind it.. so much for that thought... oh and to be clear thats not why i post never has been.. just a side effect that well i happen to like.  just incase you were thinking of going there..

frankly i wouldnt want you as a client you are way to smart for me.. its eveident you dont need my services, as after all building pro audio/vidio computers are so easy and there is never any compatibility issues ...  (amazing i stil have a job must be the snake oil i sell)

funny this usually comes from a guy doing 10-15 tracks and has no need of low latency and is not a pro user.
generally thinks his system is finely tuned (oh wait no need for that either)
and his 1600 ram is probably running @ 1066 and dont even know it..

to all those who are so smart i say come here and work for a few months.. and get to see first hand how simple it really is
how there is never any compatibility issues, (obviously never build a socket 2011)
and benchmark the performace gains from our un-needed useless tweaks and bios settings..

you know why i get to be so cocky?  i have seen every possible issue/scenario out there, every problem that can happen every compatibility potential as well as how NOT to do something. and resolved them all. been doing this longer than anyone (in biz non stop)
so i also have a system/setup longeivity idea as well. (only Roseberry has been around technicaly longer but took a few hiatus')

lastly i dont claim to be that smart but i am smart enough to surround myself with employees who are.

when you debate with me you are debating with 12 people, most of who have been in this industry a very long time..

carry on the company bashing now..
 
just realized this is like the 3rd or 4th time you have tried this nonsense with me..  the others on Gearslutz..

>>>>mandrake,
i am a pretty busy guy, and post in several forums, due to this my posts are short, blunt and to the point. i dont have time to sugar coat it, or be polically correct. (not that i care anyway about politically correct)
i am not here for a popularity party what you see is what you get.
and i dont have to explain myself. funny about ever 6 months someone like you pops up.. <<<<
 
 

yet here you are explaining yourself and wasting time from being bz. lol. I find that ironic. Like I said above (sigh), a little professionalism would save you time (and if time is $ then you do lose that as well by being rude and condescending). Ive said over and over im not trying to attack anyone or fight with anyone. See above so I don’t have to repeat everything.



>>>you can take my advice or leave it, up to you. how i deliver it should be mostly irreleveant, at least to a point. <<<<
 
 

I disagree that it’s irrelevant. But I don't feel like typing the same thing again.  See above.



>>>yet here you are doing what i am accused of? thats hillarious dude.. <<<<
 

Lol. Well, you are "accused" of being rude and condescending. And being unprofessional. But you are also "accused" of being helpful. I'm not trying to fight with anyone. I'm just presenting another view. I've actually tried to go out of my way to be niece.  :)



>>>and if you think for a minute i am losing money due to my posts guess again. <<<<
 

Like I said..your wasting time responding to people like me. I'd say that qualifies as losing at least some $, if your time is worth $. Plus potential clients. I've seen it over and over. People say that they wont do business with you cause of your ways. But hey, you make enough so f em, right?


>>>>frankly i wouldnt want you as a client you are way to smart for me.. its eveident you dont need my services, as after all building pro audio/vidio computers are so easy and there is never any compatibility issues ... (amazing i stil have a job must be the snake oil i sell) <<<
 

true I don't need your services and (**blush**) thanks for thinking I'm way too smart for you. lol.  But why do you need to lie and exaggerate to make your point?
I didn’t say you are selling snake oil. I said I'm sure your products are great. So you are putting words in my mouth. Lying really. And sure there can be compatibility issues. But not always. And if one is careful and does their research, those issues can be mostly eliminated.
 

>>>>funny this usually comes from a guy doing 10-15 tracks and has no need of low latency and is not a pro user.
generally thinks his system is finely tuned (oh wait no need for that either)
and his 1600 ram is probably running @ 1066 and dont even know it.. <<<<
 

ahh more of the condescending attitude. and exaggerations. People are stupid right? And talk about exaggerating. Computers have been able to run 80 plus tracks for over a decade. With pug ins and vstis. And no one said, at any point ( to my knowledge) that a finely tuned system isn’t desirable. I just said that its pretty ez to have a computer that is more than capable of being a great tool to realize just about any vision. With a little tweaking you really only have to do once. Especially now in these glorious times of more computer power than most even need.   And it's not just people with 10-15 tracks with no need for low latency.  Everyone wants the lowest latency. And a great song really doesnt need that many tracks. 


>>>to all those who are so smart i say come here and work for a few months.. and get to see first hand how simple it really is
how there is never any compatibility issues, (obviously never build a socket 2011)
and benchmark the performace gains from our un-needed useless tweaks and bios settings.. <<<
 
 

Again with the exaggerations. Who said they are useless and unneeded tweaks? I'm just saying its not really that hard. And when other users discover things that work they share it. Peer to peer forums are a wealth of knowledge. And you certainly contribute to that wealth. Besides a lot of those kind of benchmarks are misleading. What really matters is can someone make really great sounding music with computers available today? Very much so! The rest os for geeks.  I mean 10 years ago you where selling computers to professionals that where way underpowered by today's standards. And they managed to make music.


>>>you know why i get to be so cocky? i have seen every possible issue/scenario out there, every problem that can happen every compatibility potential as well as how NOT to do something. and resolved them all. been doing this longer than anyone (in biz non stop)
so i also have a system/setup longeivity idea as well. (only Roseberry has been around technicaly longer but took a few hiatus') <<<
 
 

that's fine but you aren't the only one that can put together a great system that will be very productive to someone. And I don’t think that's an excuse to be cocky.



>>>>lastly i dont claim to be that smart but i am smart enough to surround myself with employees who are.

when you debate with me you are debating with 12 people, most of who have been in this industry a very long time..

carry on the company bashing now.. <<<<
 
 

That's a good policy. "I wise man keeps good counse". Or something like that. And again you exaggerate. What company bashing?

>>>>just realized this is like the 3rd or 4th time you have tried this nonsense with me.. the others on Gearslutz<<<<
 


Paranoid much? lol. I'm not a member of gearslutz, though I do go there often.

Wow.

Stupid. Yea. We are all mostly stupid. Because we are ignorant we behave in ways that result in unintended consequences.  Cannot know everything about everything.

I work with dudes who get paid many hundreds of thousands of dollars.  They are good at what they do and are not really interested in learning about most anything but what they do real well.

They are not stupid about this, they are focused. And very ignorant about most of what happens on the planet. Cuz that is the way it is.

I provide them with help using a very complex device to do very few things as easily and quickly as they can be done. The learn what is only necessary. This makes them smart. But still ignorant.


No personal attack. I surmise you are young because of the tone of you comments. Most all the people I have known have become more tolerant as they have aged. Largely because they have learned to recognize their profound ignorance, and stupidity.

Your misinterpretation of others' comments and intentions, that you use to feed your anger and outrage, will result in you getting your way more often that you getting what you want. 'Tis a big difference.

This is because such emotions are mostly a waste of time and food.

At least you type well. A good skill to have.

j

This thread is a bloody disgrace.
 
Somebody who has experience has given some good tips on getting the most out of your DAW and has been backed up by his tech support guy on why it works has just met with the most appaling disrespect from those I can only imagine haven't tried any of the suggestions put forward.
 
If they had they will have seen the tangible benefits and not be limiting themselves to non-turbo speeds into the bargain.
 
It's just disrespectful posturing of the most puerile order and not one person has provided a shred of anything to back up any of the criticisms.  The reason being is nobody can back them up with anything practical or provide anything better.
 
All I can say is my system is setup exactly has been recommended here, and has been for some time, and there have been no downsides compared to limiting my CPU to it's non turbo speed and gaining intermittent pops and clicks at low latencies (down to 32 buffers) due to having HPET enabled. 
 
Remember I have absolutely zero affiliation with Scott or any hardware specialist that comes on this forum, but I've certainly learned where the good dope on configuring a DAW comes from.  I try what is suggested and if it works I run with it.  Scott has provided more pearls on this board than anyone I can think of and I personally can't thank him enough.
 
If anyone wants to scoff at that some more then feel free.  Personally though I'd rather see some more of the good stuff.  Anyone got any?

Jonbouy


This thread is a bloody disgrace.
 
Somebody who has experience has given some good tips on getting the most out of your DAW and has been backed up by his tech support guy on why it works has just met with the most appaling disrespect from those I can only imagine haven't tried any of the suggestions put forward.
 
If they had they will have seen the tangible benefits and not be limiting themselves to non-turbo speeds into the bargain.
 
It's just disrespectful posturing of the most puerile order and not one person has provided a shred of anything to back up any of the criticisms.  The reason being is nobody can back them up with anything practical or provide anything better.
 
All I can say is my system is setup exactly has been recommended here, and has been for some time, and there have been no downsides compared to limiting my CPU to it's non turbo speed and gaining intermittent pops and clicks at low latencies (down to 32 buffers) due to having HPET enabled. 
 
Remember I have absolutely zero affiliation with Scott or any hardware specialist that comes on this forum, but I've certainly learned where the good dope on configuring a DAW comes from.  I try what is suggested and if it works I run with it.  Scott has provided more pearls on this board than anyone I can think of and I personally can't thank him enough.
 
If anyone wants to scoff at that some more then feel free.  Personally though I'd rather see some more of the good stuff.  Anyone got any?

Neither do I, I just happened to have three computers from Scott that worked right out of the box(and I'm sure Jim's would do that too)
 
Read their posts and decide what is best for you.
 
 
 

"Jonbouy"
This thread is a bloody disgrace.

I agree. Because of your OT personal attacks and disregard of your own good counsel on how to conduct yourself in a peer to peer forum.

"Jonbouy"
Personally though I'd rather see some more of the good stuff. Anyone got any?

"Bitflipper"
Far and away the best optimization anyone can do is to dedicate the machine to the single purpose of being an audio workstation.

ECBowen


"Intel Management Engine"? That's only a remote management and provisioning utility for business desktops, and while it does allow remote setting of a PM profile and setting in which sleep states the system can be remotely woken and what system events are logged/reported, it has nothing to do with actual power management. I take it you are using it for remote support, but don't understand why you think it is relevant here.
"
 
You might want to update your reading on this subject. I would recommend that you start here with the link below. VPro was started as separate Intel technology that used the IME. The IME was not designed for VPro by itself.
http://download.intel.com/technology/product/DCMI/DCMI-HI_1_0.pdf

Hi Eric, back now from paying some bills.  

Ah, ok, I understand now to what you were referring regarding the "Intel Management Engine", in respect of the firmware embedded controller functionality in the PCH. IOW, I assume you were referring to activity of the "meci" driver (formerly the "heci") driver? I knew that Intel had expanded the capabilties/functionality of their embedded controller from its earlier southbridge incarnation in the newer PCHs.

I am at somewhat of a loss here, in that I am not using a current laptop running Windows 7 (for audio, a Macbook just works, gave up on the crappy crippled BIOSes in PC laptops years ago) and the SB/IB DAWs here are on Supermicro and Intel mobo's with discrete embedded controllers (Nuvoton chips) and not the IME/MECI, so maybe I missed seeing what you were referring to. I only checked out an HTPC desktop box in a shop, not a laptop or a fully loaded DAW, and only ran Latency Monitor, not any other diagnostics.

However, I did not see where IME/MECI was updating anything except for the telemetry on temp, fan speed, etc. although it may have also been originating PMEs/SMIs which I was not in a position to check for.


Look, I wasn't disputing what you were witnessing wrt what you said about seeing increased DPC latency and more  frequent interrupts. But I am still seriously questioning whether that is down to the HPET (which when enabled does not in any way change the system interrupt interval, as may be confirmed with the timer utilities to which I had linked previously).

So lets get this straight. We should spend countless hours convincing different manufacturers to adjust their drivers that effect less than 5% of the IT industry versus disabling HPET which resolves the matter immediately without further time and expenditure? 

No, what I am saying is that, were I in your position as a system vendor/integrator, I might look further into why the effects you are witnessing are occurring when HPET (which has been a Windows hardware logo/certification requirement for years now) is enabled, rather than simply disabling it and recommending that everyone else do so also.

Have you even bothered testing with the /useplatformclock switch, or do you still not understand why I had mentioned it earlier?

Have you run powercfg with the -energy parameter to investigate what was going on? 

Have you tried stopping IME from loading, to see what happened?

Or maybe run xperf or process explorer? Or checked the BIOS out with biosbits? 

I mean, I just build and use my own DAWs, but have long tested and troubleshot them with the tools I have available. Now, if I were in the PC biz and was seeing anomalous behavior as you have with HPET enabled, I think I'd investigate, and if I couldn't find out why, maybe send a system to MS and have them investigate why. I'm fairly certain MS do care enough about 5% of their market to find out why hardware they are requiring in all Windows systems is causing performance problems and do something to rectify the situation.

Further we should ignore all testing/observations that show the HPET having negative impact on asio devices and asio engine in general. Asio has the capability to interrupt at a far faster interval than the HPET with WDM drivers and was around well before the HPET was even designed. No offence but I  would be out of a job and someone else would be posting here in my place if I followed that line of thinking. Scott is forgiving but I dont believe incompetance on my part will get me very far with him. 

I think what you appear to be saying in regard to ASIO, which uses the legacy Windows MM Timer (now obsolete and deprecated), is that it does cause the system timer resolution to be increased to 1ms, having the effect of globally decreasing the system interrupt interval to 1ms (from the usual 10 or 15.6ms), causing all other interrupt/timer intervals to occur/expire faster and thus putting a greater load on the cpu and impacting overall system responsiveness. If so, yes, this has been well known for years.

[EDIT: Hmm, maybe that didn't come out the way I'd intended. I did not mean to knock ASIO per se (it was a real boon to PC-based audio back when and still remains so, and I doubt MS would have ever bothered to implement KS without Steinberg having shown the way with ASIO), but only meant to point out that ASIO has not been kept updated in line with developments in the PC platform and Windows kernel. As for why you are seeing deleterious effects manifested with ASIO when HPET is enabled, well that's a good question and one which I, were I in your position, would be asking of MS and Steinberg (and Intel as well as the interface makers whose Windows ASIO drivers are being affected).]

As for  ASIO, the problem I (and many others) have is with MIDI syncing (or rather, not syncing) with audio and even with itself, due to timestamping respectively using different system clocks. Steinberg and Cakewalk (and RME and other s/w and h/w mfrs) are well aware of these problems, which have gone on for years without being resolved on the PC platform (and have probably accounted for a lot of MIDI musicians moving to Macs). ASIO 2.0 is still using TimeGetTime calls to the MM timer for timing and is rather low precision today, and hasn't really improved since the 95/98 days of ASIO 1.0. And MS haven't helped in this regard either, what with dropping/ screwing up support for MIDI in Vista and putting in worse performing emulation.

[EDIT: That didn't come out entirely right either. I meant to say that ASIO driver implementations (ok, certainly not all, but perhaps many) have not been updated in line with platform/OS developments, and still carry legacy baggage in the way they are implemented. That is hardly all down to Steinberg, as there were some rather advanced and forward-looking implementation options (e.g. single buffering, event notification, prefetch, DMA, etc.) made available to ASIO developers in anticipation of pre-emptive multi-tasking on multiprocessor systems and asynchronous processing becoming the norm (and well before MS implemented its wavert driver model at that). But still, although timestamping with nanosecond resolution and timed buffer switch call interrupts are fine, referencing a system timer with a resolution of 1ms (and which timer impacts upon system performance) while it might have been of practical necessity back when should really imo have been updated in view of platform changes.]

HPET offers some significant advantages over the Win MM timer wrt reducing DPC latency and system loading if event-based notification routines are employed. Maybe ASIO 3.0...

ECBowen
Please show what data and evidence you have to support this position. I have tested systems with HPET on and they have shown zero, absolutely zero performance gain with Pro Audio applications or Videoediting applications. The testing however has shown considerable performance gain at low latency with Asio with HPET off. Please enlighten all of us where this stance is supported in any way or is this conjecture based on what you are reading about the HPET?

Um, ever tried recording/playing any MIDI (music/automation data) along with that audio or video? No problems? Everything line up/play out properly?


Oh wait, lookee here. In Cakewalk one can set TTS. ini to ignore timestamps. Workaround, but not a solution. (Cubendo also have options for which audio/MIDI timestamps to use, but still just a workaround).

Now, please be so kind as to try setting HPET to enabled and set  /useplatformclock and try a WDM-KS MIDI driver. And maybe a WDM audio driver too. Better now?

Hint: too many different clocks spoil the MIDI soup...

Now, please be so kind as to try setting HPET to enabled and set /useplatformclock and try a WDM-KS MIDI driver. And maybe a WDM audio driver too. Better now?

 
I've tried it.  It doesn't work as well disabling HPET for ASIO at least, and my interface just sucks under WDM.
 
I've also tried bypassing IME and various other combinations.
 
HPET does indeed provide benefits for timing and no doubt at some point everything else will catch up to that fact, but with what we are using today, enabling Turbo and disabling HPET in order to get maximum low-latency ASIO performance as of now certainly yeilds the best results I've managed to produce.
 
The issue is compounded by the fact the consumer led drivers for video and networking, etc. take advantage of HPET to overly 'pester' the CPU for green reasons, turning off HPET also moderates this clamour for interrupts.
 
Kudos due though at least YOU seem to be aware of what the issues actually are.
 
It's all compromise basically because a dedicated DAW in it's true sense doesn't exist, and what may be the best compromise today will not be the best in 12 months, much like the Core Parking issue that was posed in the OP, that will mitigate the timing issue but at over 10% of the cost of your processing power.

ECBowen

Alegria



My thoughts exactly and the reason why I did not agree with Scott to begin with. Also, the recent research I've done on this subject simply confirms it without a doubt. HPET OFF is not a tweak nor is it a "one size fits-all" fix for systems having trouble with a high precision external clock. And as mentioned by Goddard...,
"

 
[size=4 font="times new roman"]What research? Please show me anywhere with data that shows the HPET increases performance with anything. I have seen the opposite every time with Pro Audio. Boards that were unusable for audio below a 256 Buffer could now handle a 64 Buffer with the same interfaces. Laptops by default do not have the option to disable HPET in the bios so that is something we still have to convince the manufacturer to do when needed. What I can say is when I have shown the systemboard engineers the DPC screen pics and the links to the programs we use to get those, the first bios I get back is the option to turn off the HPET. I wonder why that is?
 
BTW please dont look at White Papers from 2006 to 2008 and think the evolution of that technology ends there. How do you think they are implementing live bios changes to EFI bios's without using the IME/AMT. They are integral to those as well as updating Firmware level power management that comes with laptops on the keyboard firmware as well as system bios. The Intel Management Engine was actually introduced first on laptops in the Core2 days. Intel and the laptop manufacturers stated the IME driver used was modified and specific to the laptop manufacturers as they required. Intel creates guidelines with the IME and then allows the manufacturers to change as required. That is definitely how it's done currently as EFI bios features expand. Dont assume 1 white paper from years before the platform tells you exactly how that technology is implemented now.
 
Eric
ADK

Not a laptop (for reasons already explained), but my oldish C2Q P43 system has IME firmware in the southbridge, but really only as a temp/fan speed embedded controller, not implementing the AMT remote management stuff of nowadays. Has a UEFI BIOS also (or emulated PCI ACPI BIOS), as do my SB and IB mobos. But can't see anything more being done by UEFI than by ACPI BIOS, except for data being pushed to the groovy new Intel desktop meters, as the actual power management logic still remains in the OS as far as I see (and can still be configured with powercfg if one wishes).

Seems your whitebook laptop supplier can't figure things out either, eh?  

Too bad Supermicro don't offer any mobile mobo's. They don't skimp on their BIOSes.


And just to be clear, the OP was asking about performance with a laptop on AC power, not about running in a power-saving mobile battery-powered state. 

ECBowen

HPET adds a minute amount of latency simply because it's an external clock. This is well documented and also applicable to LAPIC. But on the order of what magnitude?

 
 
There is a inherent increase in DPC activity just from the HPET. That latency fluctuates on average between 350us and 150us higher than it is when turned off. This also varies by board, platform, and desktop versus mobile because of further firmware implemented on mobile. Normally this activity is not enough to cause issues with audio accept at a buffer below 64 on most interfaces or 128 on some. 

Ok, this agrees basically with what I have seen, slightly higher DPC latency with HPET enabled, but not really excessive and not problematic. Disabling some graphics features (especially DWM) seems to reduce this activity, particularly with nVidia cards.

The real problems are any spikes that increase the activity more then 350us and often those are hardware effected by the HPET.

Can you be more specific? Exactly what hardware is being affected by HPET? I take it you are referring to drivers, in which case I ask, which drivers? Is this the "MECI" driver?

 The boards that show these issues have spikes upwards of 21,000us often replicating every second to 5 seconds. Disabling the HPET reduces these either to sub 5000us or often eliminates them completely depending on the driver/bios. That is how much activity HPET is initiating with those devices while it's active. 

Again, I presume were you seeing these spikes from drivers, and if so, I ask which drivers specifically? Did you attempt to disable these drivers to isolate the cause of the spiking with HPET enabled?

On those same boards, the DPC activity would also completely go away down to sub 20us if the C-States and Turbo was disabled. All of this is far more than the original DPC activity HPET initiated alone.
 

If I am understanding you correctly, disabling C-state transitioning and turbo boost reduced DPC latency?

ECBowen

In my case, it's no more than approx. 15us. Quite the discrepancy

 
Then you must have C-States and Turbo disabled. The numbers I gave were with Turbo active. I stated before you will get similar DPC activity with the current platforms with C-States and turbo off.
 
Eric
ADK

Ok, seems I did understand you correctly before. I'll have to read ahead to catch up, to avoid asking any more questions about stuff you've already addressed.


Now was that with HPET also being disabled? 

Jonbouy


Windows 7, Turbo enabled, HPET disabled test project running for 12 hours at 32 buffers.  Maximum DPC latency spike overnight 438us.

Same test project, same test settings HPET enabled.  Would not run at 32 buffers, minor crackling at 48 so run at 64 buffers.  Maximum DPC spike 2,600 + us after 45 minutes.  Retested 2308 us reported again after a few minutes, final try also ended in me not bothering further.

Which would you choose?

32 buffers on the Quad comes out at 3.52 ms @44,100k RTL measured by Centrance over USB 2, 5.1 ms reported in Sonar.

Who said the Quad wasn't low latency?...

I think Vin (DAWBench) did, over in another forum, in reference to the Octa under review in yet another forum. Big brouhaha that was...


But really Chuffington, you must be right chuffed with a 32 buffer. I'm rather amazed, seeing as how Roland only advertise a 48 sample minimum for the Quad/Octa VS stream ASIO drivers, and most folks seem to need 64 or higher.

Jonbouy

Thing is Windows isn't a dedicated DAW platform so we have to make the best use of it and give the dedicated Audio parts of it (like ASIO) the best chance possible against the underlying themes that Windows imposes such as networking and power management. 

No, Windows has become a pre-emptive multi-tasking OS. With a lot of hardware abstraction on top of that. 


The "dedicated audio parts (like ASIO)" to which you refer are a bit antiquated (think Win 98, pre-NT kernel of XP/Vista/7). Perhaps you will recall my pointing earlier to this old (2002) MS article:


http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463347 


in which, in reference to Fig. 2 there is described a periodic (but low resolution) interrupt timer firing every 1ms. That is the exact same timer (clock) still used by ASIO (legacy Windows MM timer):


"While this allows the multimedia application to execute its code and play a sound on time, it also degrades overall system performance. Microsoft tests have found that, while lowering the timer tick frequency to 2 milliseconds has a negligible effect on system performance, a timer tick frequency of less than 2 milliseconds can significantly degrade overall system performance. On faster systems, the cost of lowering the clock interrupt period below 2 milliseconds may become affordable, but the subtle effect of the increased interrupt frequency on cache consistency and power management may not be desirable." 

The "aperiodic" interrupt technique referring to Fig. 3 is what the HPET was intended to support. Perhaps you would have known that by now and understood why HPET is advantageous, had you bothered to read the article rather than ridicule my earlier post.

Btw, how's that ASIO MIDI working for you?

Chuffington...lol I even quite like that.
 
The midi is fine enough, if I was really picky though I'd be using a dedicated clock outboard and sync everything with that.  I'm only using one in port which is handled by the stock windows driver so I don't use the Quad's facility. 
 
And yes the spec for the Quad is 48 buffers, just goes to show what can happens with a bit of judicious tweaking to get the best out of your setup.
 
The interesting thing is that with the 1.5 driver as opposed to the initial release driver there is a switch which is supposedly to reduce CPU usage, with HPET turned off the background DPC figure actually increases by around 150 micro seconds but enables the 32 buffers, the DPC stays constant and perfectly usable even though it looks high at around 230us overall.
 
With HPET turned on the background DPC stays lower on average but peaks every few seconds and sometimes beyond the threshold of acceptable.
 
I think there must be some kind of pre-allocation going on with what Roland call VS streaming but whatever it is in practice I could run a few instances of a major sampling package, a big drum sampler whilst being Rewired without getting any sign of glitching @32 buffers.
 
I tend to run it 64 samples and do everything set that way though sometimes I'll use the 32 sample capability for a bit of tracking monitoring through the app.

This doesn't work with any set up that differs from the one described here with HPET off and turbo on.

So what should I be changing?
 
If I leave HPET on the audio still works but not under any load at all, and midi craps out as soon as you move a mod wheel or bend pitch, HPET off midi is fine, audio is fine and under reasonable loads.
 
Simple as that.

Alegria
HPET adds a minute amount of latency simply because it's an external clock. This is well documented and also applicable to LAPIC.

Well documented where? 


HPET is not an "external" clock (ok, it is "external" to the cpu but it is a system device (in the PCH) with directly accessible registers (addresses in system memory space)).  And no, it does not add any significant latency (very low overhead).

"Goddard"
Well documented where?

One of many articles I reviewed is found here:

Performance by Design

"Goddard"
And no, it does not add any significant latency (very low overhead).

I agree and as previously stated...,

"Alegria"
In my case, it's no more than approx. 15us.

Alegria

"Goddard"

Well documented where?

One of many articles I reviewed is found here:

Performance by Design

"Goddard"

And no, it does not add any significant latency (very low overhead).

I agree and as previously stated...,

"Alegria"

In my case, it's no more than approx. 15us.

Ah, ok, already discussed this in #75 above (here):


http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=2628147&mpage=3#2650824


As said, in future, high rez timing will likely migrate towards "invariant TSC" using RDTSCP, as discussed here:


http://download.intel.com...software/IA/324264.pdf


The PC Clock Timing utility I linked to in post #75 displays the results and execution times of different timer calls, although I haven't investigated which timebase(s) the programmer used for those measurements.


 

So what's your peak DPC over a 12 period with your ASIO driver running @32 samples under load?  How often do those peaks occur? What's your RTL figure with that?
 
As I keep saying which you would construe as an OT personal attack is that having a really low DPC figure, it's meaningless on its own.
 
Perhaps also you can explain where the performance of my machine WRT to audio production is lacking compared to your proudly declared 'Dedicated' one which we already know is underperforming currently by around 12%.

Jonbouy


Chuffington...lol I even quite like that.
 
The midi is fine enough, if I was really picky though I'd be using a dedicated clock outboard and sync everything with that.  I'm only using one in port which is handled by the stock windows driver so I don't use the Quad's facility. 
 
And yes the spec for the Quad is 48 buffers, just goes to show what can happens with a bit of judicious tweaking to get the best out of your setup.
 
The interesting thing is that with the 1.5 driver as opposed to the initial release driver there is a switch which is supposedly to reduce CPU usage, with HPET turned off the background DPC figure actually increases by around 150 micro seconds but enables the 32 buffers, the DPC stays constant and perfectly usable even though it looks high at around 230us overall.
 
With HPET turned on the background DPC stays lower on average but peaks every few seconds and sometimes beyond the threshold of acceptable.
 
I think there must be some kind of pre-allocation going on with what Roland call VS streaming but whatever it is in practice I could run a few instances of a major sampling package, a big drum sampler whilst being Rewired without getting any sign of glitching @32 buffers.
 
I tend to run it 64 samples and do everything set that way though sometimes I'll use the 32 sample capability for a bit of tracking monitoring through the app.

Nice, Chuffles!


I'm curious. I realize you are using 8.5, but what is your setting in Aud.ini for "Use HardwareSamplePosition"? Also, how many queue buffers?

What MIDI interface are you using, if not your Quad?

I'm just using an M-Audio keyboard via USB with the standard Windows driver.  I am using the Octa's midi out for a vintage module.  I also use a fair bit of Virtual Midi routing ITB using loopMidi.
 
I'll get the figures from Aud.ini later only I'm not on my DAW partition just now.
Here ya go.
 
UseHardwareSamplePosition=1
 
Queue buffers are at default of 2