Helpful ReplyCorrect Setting for Spectrum Analyzers?

Author
2:43AM
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1147
  • Joined: 2013/06/24 07:59:49
  • Location: PHX
  • Status: offline
2016/11/11 16:51:12 (permalink)

Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers?

I am experimenting with checking frequency and amplitude values in my mixes, trying to confirm what I learned in a video tutorial.  I use both Sonar and Ableton Live 9.7 for my music.  Though the DAW track meters are similar, the include Spectrum in Ableton Live, the QuadCurve EQ in Sonar, and Voxengo Span all behave (and display) differently.  Mainly, it's all in the slope, I believe.
 
Since Voxengo Span is the only one having an adjustable slope, what is the correct value for it?
 
I've read it all depends on what you're checking.  But all in all, if a pure, 1kHz sine tone at -6dB is inserted into Span, then should the peak reside at -6dB?  After all, Sonar's track volume meter shows a steady value of -6.0dB.  At Span's default slope setting of +4.5, that sine tone peaks (the actual "peak" of the fundamental) at -24.7dB.  Block size is 2,048.  Adjusting the block size increases its amplitude in the meter, but even at 65,536 samples, the amplitude is only -9.6dB peak.  Setting the slope 0, i.e. linear, results in a -9.4dB peak.  Still not -6.0dB!
 
Do spectrum analyzers display the RMS amplitude of the frequency?  With that in mind, Voxengo Span also will show you the RMS value down at the bottom, left corner.  For the aforementioned sine to at -6.0dB, Spans shows -10.6dB for RMS, -12.9dB for the peak of the fundamental, and -6.0dB for the peak (bottom middle Span).

What gives?  Please help.  Thanks!
#1
rumleymusic
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1533
  • Joined: 2006/08/23 18:03:05
  • Location: California
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 12:16:29 (permalink)
The correct setting is whatever you can understand.  It is not a reliable peak meter or RMS meter.  It is there to visualize problems in the frequency response.  The peaks are averaged out based on the FFT (block) number.  So a sine wave of 1000Hz will likely contain an average of all the surrounding frequencies until the next block.  A bad answer is just don't worry about it. Use the right tool for the right purpose.  

Daniel Rumley
Rumley Music and Audio Production
www.rumleymusic.com
#2
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 12:48:49 (permalink)
Spectrum analyzers basically split the frequency range into a number of equally wide bands that tell you how much energy is in each band. 
 
[EDIT: I lost my brain earlier - you don't get the correct reading because of windowing.]
post edited by drewfx1 - 2016/11/12 23:04:29

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#3
2:43AM
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1147
  • Joined: 2013/06/24 07:59:49
  • Location: PHX
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 14:32:21 (permalink)
Thank you for the reply, drewfx1.  The reason why I ask is because I am trying to confirm what a Groove3 tutorial has instructed.  I began typing up this huge post before realizing that the data coming out of Voxengo Span is totally different (amplitude wise) than other spectrum analyzers.  Obviously, I want to compare apples to apples.  I would like to "straighten out" the data before starting another thread with the issue.
#4
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5139
  • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
  • Location: Ballarat, Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 16:13:23 (permalink)
I agree with Daniel in that accurate level measuring is not its thing. There are other things that are better for this.
 
The main one for me is the slope of the analyser. I like pink noise to be a straight horizontal line. Sometimes (on some analysers) it is not and the slope needs to be set so the pink noise ends up with no slope.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
 
Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
#5
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 16:27:07 (permalink)
In terms of apples to apples it can be difficult. If every parameter was the same then you should get the same result. Unfortunately there are lots of parameters that are involved (including the sample rate of your project) and not all parameters in a given spectrum analyzer plugin are visible or controllable or even called by their proper technical names. Some plugins also have additional features like the "slope" in Span which I think just progressively boosts higher frequencies in the display - you probably want to set it to 0dB.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#6
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 16:37:18 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
I agree with Daniel in that accurate level measuring is not its thing. There are other things that are better for this.
 


It should always measure what it measures accurately. Unfortunately you have to know everything that's going on (which they don't necessarily tell you ) and understand exactly what it's telling you. 
 
So you either stick with one tool and get to know how it responds or you learn to use a perhaps less friendly, more technically oriented tool that requires understanding to know exactly what it's telling you.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#7
2:43AM
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1147
  • Joined: 2013/06/24 07:59:49
  • Location: PHX
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 17:09:52 (permalink)
Thanks Daniel and Drew!
 
Overall, I'm not unfamiliar with the way spectrum analyzers work, and historically I have always used them to check the frequencies in a mix and allow me to visualize what my ears tell me (and my ears don't seem very musical these days).  In other words, I can see the frequencies to which to cut or boost, if necessary.  And that's what I use spectrum analyzers for...checking the frequencies...not necessarily checking the amplitude of said frequencies.  One exception to that though: checking the amplitudes in a mix relative to one another in the same EQ or spectrum analyzer tool.
 
I'll just go ahead and mention my dilemma here instead of another thread.
 
You see, having watched this Groove3 tutorial entitled "Top 10 EDM Don'ts," I find myself dumber for having watched it.  The author, whom I think does a great job in his explanations and training, instructed how to adjust levels of the kick's, and the bass's, fundamental frequency using a spectrum analyzer as opposed to using the standard, track VU meter with a peak/max-level indicator.  He doesn't advocate to not using the track meter to set levels, but it just wasn't mentioned (or shown) in this particular video.  He also advises to listen and check professional songs in the spectrum analyzer to see how they stack up.  Seems like decent advice except for one, big problem:
 
The fundamental frequency of a kick or bass note does not equal the peak amplitude "held" in a track's meter.
 
For example, a bass line sample is playing and looping.  It's track's audio max-peak indicator says -3dB.  It's way too loud for the mix, so the track's volume fader is adjusted so the indicator reads -8dB, let's say.  So in most simplistic cases, that's it; you've set the bass level.  But following his advice, you then check how loud the fundamental frequency of the bass sound is so you can compare it to the kick drum, let's say, and you now find that the amplitude is nowhere even close to what the track level meter says.  So how the hell can you actually "mix" with this advice??!?

For anyone with a Groove3 subscription, I encourage you to watch the 2nd video in the "Top 10 EDM Don'ts" video series to see what I'm talking about.  Also, as a primer to his methodology for "normal" level setting, check out the 8th video in "Top 10 EDM Do's" series.
 
EDIT: To rule out the possibility of one of the aforementioned samples having a transient or a click that would force the VU meter to peak at a louder mark, I verified that the sample did not have such a sound inside of it, zooming into the waveform to verify.
#8
dmbaer
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 20:10:22
  • Location: Concord CA
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 18:34:59 (permalink)
2:43AM
Since Voxengo Span is the only one having an adjustable slope, what is the correct value for it?



FYI, Melda Production's free MAnalyzer also has an adjustable slope.
#9
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5139
  • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
  • Location: Ballarat, Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 18:38:21 (permalink)
It is definitely not the only one with adjustable slope.  Feed in pink noise and adjust for a flat line. The slope needs to be set for 3dB on Span for the flat line. I think it defaults to 4.5dB
 
Although from the Fab Filter website mentioned below by timidi there is this information:
 
The Tilt (Slope) setting tilts the measured spectrum around 1 kHz with a specified slope, expressed in dB per octave. The default setting of 4.5 dB/oct results in a natural looking spectrum, resembling best how loudness is perceived by the human ear.
 
Levels wise I must say I just did some tests and it is dead on accurate. I know bitflipper has been praising its level accuracy and I would say he is right for sure. It is showing exact match for peak and rms levels compared to all my other metering options.  What I do like about Span is it has many metering options too which is also nice including K system levels where 0 dB VU on the meter agrees to either K-12, K-14 or K-20 ref level.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2016/11/12 20:48:19

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
 
Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
#10
timidi
Max Output Level: -21 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5449
  • Joined: 2006/04/11 12:55:15
  • Location: SE Florida
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 20:22:00 (permalink)
Not sure I'm following the question raised but this may help:
http://www.fabfilter.com/help/pro-q/using/analyzer
 

ASUS P8P67, i7-2600K, CORSAIR 16GB, HIS 5450, 3 Samsung SSD 850, Win7 64, RME AIO.
 
https://timbowman.bandcamp.com/releases
 
#11
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/12 23:09:48 (permalink)
I lost my brain earlier - it doesn't show the levels correctly because of windowing.
 
And if you are going to compare sine waves, then you need to set the slope to 0dB to get an accurate comparison of relative levels.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#12
2:43AM
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1147
  • Joined: 2013/06/24 07:59:49
  • Location: PHX
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/13 05:24:37 (permalink)
drewfx1
I lost my brain earlier - it doesn't show the levels correctly because of windowing.

 
Hmm.  Well, this explains why the amplitudes change based on the window/block size.  Voxengo Span definitely performs consistently across a broad range of block sizes.
 
drewfx1And if you are going to compare sine waves, then you need to set the slope to 0dB to get an accurate comparison of relative levels.

 
I'll have to try that. Thanks for the tip.

Overall, it seems that the Groove3 tutorial is lending misleading advice, or maybe I'm just interpreting it wrong.  I'm not advocating that people go out and buy the series, but I bet some folks here have yearly subscriptions to Groove3 via their All-Access Pass.  So all they'd have to do is cue up the aforementioned video series and chime back to this thread.
#13
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5139
  • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
  • Location: Ballarat, Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/13 05:44:20 (permalink)
drewfx1
I lost my brain earlier - it doesn't show the levels correctly because of windowing. And if you are going to compare sine waves, then you need to set the slope to 0dB to get an accurate comparison of relative levels.


I was referring to the level meter on the right being accurate. Not what the spectrum display itself is showing level wise. Although I do get the fact that the spectrum level is referring to a particular frequency band. That seems to be low compared to the actual (total) level of the signal. I would not be using that as a basis of accurate level measurement.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
 
Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
#14
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 26036
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/13 09:44:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby 2:43AM 2016/11/13 16:00:54
That begs the question: how often does one even need accurate level measurements? I'm thinking it's just once, in mastering.
 
Most of the time we're relying on spectrum analyzers solely for relative levels. One of the reasons I've liked MAnalyzer (and MMultiAnalyzer) is that it has a normalization feature (now SPAN has it, too) that lets you ignore absolute levels entirely and focus on relative amplitudes.
 
On the subject of slope, that's partly a genre-specific decision. For Top-40 pop, a 3 dB/octave slope works well. For acoustic genres, traditional jazz and classical music, 6dB/octave works better. Choosing -4.5 dB as the default for SPAN was a middle-ground compromise.
 
One way to settle on a slope is to determine the slope of your reference recording(s) that you want to emulate. Let's say you think Eclipse from Dark Side of the Moon best matches the project you're working on. Import it into SONAR and insert SPAN on the track. Choose "Master" as the mode (you want a slow-moving average). Now adjust the Slope knob until the low and high frequencies are at about the same level. (For that particular song, the slope is about 3.5 dB/octave on average, but brightens significantly to 2.5 dB/octave during some parts.) 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#15
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/13 14:12:22 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
drewfx1
I lost my brain earlier - it doesn't show the levels correctly because of windowing. And if you are going to compare sine waves, then you need to set the slope to 0dB to get an accurate comparison of relative levels.


I was referring to the level meter on the right being accurate. Not what the spectrum display itself is showing level wise. Although I do get the fact that the spectrum level is referring to a particular frequency band. That seems to be low compared to the actual (total) level of the signal. I would not be using that as a basis of accurate level measurement.




Hopefully my brain is better today. 
 
The levels between meter types should be at least somewhat similar for isolated sine waves (i.e. a single sine wave with nothing else present), but obviously if you take a single -10dB sine wave at one frequency it will have a lower total level than two or more -10dB sines at different frequencies combined. And if you know you have an isolated sine wave, there's really no reason to bother with two different types of meters, right? 
 
So yes indeed, you're right - spectrum analyzers are only good for comparison between frequency bands and you can't really compare individual band levels to the overall level, at least not in most practical applications with a DAW.
 
 
In terms of the slopes, the difference between pink noise and white noise (and associated slopes) is that pink noise distributes the noise so that it's equal by octave (like our hearing) whereas white noise is equal by frequency.
 
FFT's do their thing by dividing things into equal frequency bands rather than equal octaves, so for "exactly how much at this individual frequency vs. that frequency" we want a 0dB slope (white noise appears as a horizontal line), and for "how much in each octave" we want pink noise to be the horizontal line - which corrects for the FFT dividing things into equal frequency bands vs. octaves.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#16
rspagnuolo
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 103
  • Joined: 2015/06/04 11:23:10
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/29 16:32:54 (permalink)
Hello All,
 
I need help with calibrating my mixing position using pink noise.
 
I've read that one should use pink noise from 500 Hz to 2.5 K. The pink noise files I've seen are full spectrum.
The Pro-Channel has a low pass and a high pass filter with a roll-off choice of 6 dB, 12 dB, etc. What is correct slope of the roll off?
 
Thanks in advance for your help,
 
Ray (aka Oluon)
#17
dmbaer
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 20:10:22
  • Location: Concord CA
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/29 16:51:46 (permalink)
Here's an in-depth and excellent tutorial on the subject:
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/monitor-wizard
 
Here's a source for noise calibration files (there might be better ones out there but this is the first I found):
 
http://abluesky.com/support/blue-sky-calibration-test-files/
#18
rspagnuolo
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 103
  • Joined: 2015/06/04 11:23:10
  • Status: offline
Re: Correct Setting for Spectrum Analyzers? 2016/11/29 21:19:11 (permalink)
Thanks dmbaer,
 
Looks like that's just what I need.
 
I'll stop for an SPL meter at Radio Shack, too.
 
The info in the other posts is also very interesting.
 
Ray (aka Oluon)
#19
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1