Crashes!

This always happens to me. Working with Sonar, everything is great, the flow is working. Things are sounding great, editing MIDI, having fun, hit play, then boom, crash, WSOD. I've gotten used to hitting Ctrl+S after just about every change, but I still manage to lose around 5 or 10 min of work every time it happens and it completely trashes my flow. Once I transition to the audio domain, I never have a problem and don't get any crashes. It only seems to happen when fiddling with MIDI during composition. No one has ever been able to reproduce these crashes, but they happen regularly here.
I know the evangelists will tell me my sys config is wrong and I need to update my drivers, etc. but the problem has persisted across multiple driver, Sonar, and VSTi versions. Maybe one of these days I'll be able to send Cakewalk a reproducible way to trigger the issue. All I can say is, it's frustrating as hell.
I suspect there might be a pointer that's getting trashed during MIDI editing. I'm pretty much 100% convinced it has nothing to do with my audio drivers or which plugins I have loaded.
ARGH!!!
 

mudgel
Heaven forbid I should turn out to be an evangelist but by your own reasoning the problems have
"persisted across multiple driver, Sonar and VSTI versions"

The only common denominator then is your computer/audio system. However you say you're 100% sure it's not drivers or plugins.

Audio driver is the current MOTU 424 PCI driver. The only 3rdParty plugin loaded is Trillian, everything else is std::issue Cakewalk (AD2, TTS1). Machine is optimized for audio following the Cakewalk recommendations. My box was pretty much state of the art when I built it less than a year ago. To be honest, I replaced my hardware partially as an attempt to resolve this issue.

mudgel
If it's not your computer system and its Sonar, can you explain why the forum has any members state that Sonar is running fine, albeit with some minor issues but nothing like you're describing.

Have you spent some time with the forum or tech support troubleshooting your problems? I'm on a mobile device so I can't see what your signature says as respects your equipment and such.

The only explanation I can come up with is they're not doing the same thing I'm doing. Yes I have tried to work with support, however the workflow to get there is relatively complicated and not many people have the patience to try to reproduce it. Sometimes I don't remember all the steps from zero to reproduce it, I'm not really thinking about that when I'm working. All I know is that I seem to repeat them on a regular basis. I never got a response from the forum member I sent my project file and detailed instructions on how to reproduce the problem. No problem there, I completely understand that it's not their problem or responsibility to deal with.

mudgel
Do you want to troubleshoot the problems you're having or are you just venting. I'm sure either course is fine with the membership. On the other hand you could let us work with you to try and figure out what's happening and maybe even fix it.

Probably a combination of both, it doesn't happen all the time, but it's freaking annoying. I would prefer to resolve the issue.
 

azslow3
To get some reasonable suggestions, please define what you mean by "WSOD". Significant is either you just get Sonar freeze or global windows crash.
 
In no way Sonar (or any other user level program) can ever crash Windows, by design. That does not mean Sonar can not trigger something in the drivers and/or hardware which crash then, so we can try to find that.
 
In case only Sonar is crashing and Windows is still in tact, that is a different story. Again, that does not mean that something in drivers is not triggering something in Sonar, and we can try to fight with that.

WSOD is an application level crash, not an OS level crash. Windows intercedes and tells you the application has stopped working. When that happens the application window turns white, thus WSOD. It's a Sonar only crash.

Tom, have you checked your power line?  I had similar problems for years and it persisted even when I had a high quality power conditioner/back up power supply.  Since running a new line to my cottage chronic crashes are a thing of the past... and I can't begin to estimate how many computers/time/expense I went to trying to make things stable... an old crappy power line turned out to be the problem

I had occasional crashy behavior and couldn't believe my interface had anything to do with it.  I had used my trusty Delta66 without problems for so many years.
 
I finally replaced the Delta with a Tascam USB interface (16x08).  I'm only a single ms slower RTL and haven't had any of the mysterious poof! moments since then.
 
Hopefully you can get things sorted out.  From P8 thru S-PlatD (minus X1 & X2) I've never had a better experience running Cakewalk DAW software than I'm having right now.  It's worth it - hang in there and try everything even if you're sure whatever-it-is isn't a problem.

Vastman
Tom, have you checked your power line?  I had similar problems for years and it persisted even when I had a high quality power conditioner/back up power supply.  Since running a new line to my cottage chronic crashes are a thing of the past...

Regardless of whether the OP's issue relates to this, I would never run a computer without a UPS and that may be a reason why I don't have significant problems. I used to "fix" studios with ADAT problems simply by telling them to buy a UPS. All of a sudden their ADAT problems would disappear.

TomHelvey
It would be really cool to get to the bottom of this and pin the blame either on Cakewalk or my machine. Other than minor annoyances with the staff view, this is the only real issue I've had with Sonar. I just keep getting nailed by it.
Personally, I think Sonar has a bug, but I haven't been able to prove it yet. The golden rule is: "Thou shalt not crash".
 

I had this crash thing with Superior Drummer 2.4.1.
When loading user presets - it could either sound a bit funny - or just crash as soon as any sound were to be played.
So after contact with Toontrack we narrowed down to when sample rate for project were different than 44k, then it happended - and they could reproduce it.
So it's fixed now in 2.4.2.
Reason was that some code that initialized resampling engine, when running 48k - was not done properly.
 
When I troubleshot this in other daws, before talking to Toontrack, StudioOne just made funny noises after loading a preset, Cubase crashed right away, Mixcraft crashed mostly, but not every time, Sonar crashed mostly too.
 
So same error could manifest itself very differently in different daws.
And plugins are my main suspects most of the time.
 
And a general tip - remove fast boot from bios at startup - makes bios do a little better memory test.
I had this on my former daw, now work machine, the original memory strip gave up one day(well, it's 12 years old now). But I immediately got a message at boot telling errors at certain memory addressen and machine blocked those and I could start up normally almost.
That's a simple test that you can reverse again to fast boot if you feel boot takes too long.
 
And the usuall, graphics drivers - are they latest.

TomHelvey
I have a UPS. I have replaced the box, the OS, and virtually everything that connects to it via USB over the last year, new keyboard controller, etc. It still happens even with no 3rdParty plugins loaded. It only happens when hitting play after doing MIDI edits. I've had it happen with no plugins loaded using an external synth and no audio tracks. It happens with TTS1. The only constant has been Sonar and active MIDI editing.

I see you have MCU and other controllers. Have you changed them as well during the last year?
I have mentioned that in case you have not done that you, you should try to remove all Control Surfaces from configuration. They can freeze sonar easily. Even with no hardware connected.
 
When hitting Play with MIDI only tracks the events are sent to the MIDI output or VSTi. Think about what can be common in these tracks, editing procedure, etc. Folders, Bank/Patch setup on the track, Step editor was used, some usual/unusual operations in Piano Roll.
 
And just to exclude it, do you by chance always use lowest possible audio/MIDI buffer settings? Have you tried to set "Playback and recording" settings in Audio and MIDI sections to conservative values?
 

Next time it WSOD's, start Task Manager and right-click on SONAR in the processes tab.  There should be an option there to generate a minidump file which the Bakers may be able to use to troubleshoot, along with your system info.
 

tenfoot
I am having the exact same experience with Platinum. Loads of wsod crashes when moving notes in midi intensive projects - once I render to audio solid as a rock. It seems to play particularly poorly with Sample Tank 3. I have reverted to working in X3 until all tracks are audio now. Fingers crossed for the next update!

Just because it works in X3 doesn't mean we can assume it is a Platinum issue. Software is based on dependencies you are dealing with a moving target. Please try the following (at each stage test to see if it is working or not):
 
1) Update the plugin to the very latest version. Make sure you are running 64 bit.
2) Perform a VST reset.
3) Run Sonar as Administrator
4) Run windows update several times.
5) Update your device drivers and firmware everywhere, esp your audio interface.
 
I suggest a new thread if that doesn't sort it. Everybody has a specific issue, it generally isn't useful to taint all issues under the same umbrella.

Here's another example from my own experience.  For the last two or three days I've been pulling my hair out because Sonar suddenly required 2, 3 & sometimes 4 tries to get it started.  I'm thinking WTF?!
 
Then I remember I had been trying to get my Peavey AT200 to work with the MIDI interface in the 16x08.  I unplugged the AT200 and Sonar is back to normal, screaming right along.
 
I like the new Sonar (X3e & up) much, much better than other DAWs I've used/tried out, but Sonar has always been more sensitive to its hardware environment that any other DAW I've used.
 
That's the reason I always think hardware when Sonar problems pop up, or even when they first appear with a new version of Sonar.  That might sound like a problem, but right now S-PlatD is a screaming, rock solid monster for me.
I've never had a DAW that performed this well.  So much so that I'm feeling pretty spoiled at the moment  :)
 
 

> I am slightly perplexed as to how it is not a Platinum issue when exactly the same project and plugins run on the same system in X3 without issue so I will have to take your word on that.
 
It's a common misconception. Often it's down to DLL libraries being incompatible with each other, but here's a simple example. Pretend Sonar X3 had a bug that Plugin X worked around with it's own code. Then Platinum fixed that bug, however Plugin X hasn't been updated to reflect the fact. That workaround code still in Plugin X could cause it to crash in Platinum until it gets stripped out. Throw it back into X3 though and it's business as usual. Just one example I stress.

azslow3
If I understand that correctly, there was crashes inside a project with MIDI tracks only going to external HW Synth. That exclude VSTs from possible problem origin. Audio is also not in use. Leaving Sonar itself + Control Surfaces + MIDI drivers. But MIDI drivers can be excluded by crash with just TTS1 only. And so, in case Control Surfaces are not connected (which I have asked already), the problem is somewhere in Sonar...

 
To be clear I was previously responding to tenfoot's issue who has a completely different issue with Sample Tank 3. I've asked him to create a new thread if the issue persists.
 
With hardware there are other dependencies to look at. For instance is there are services running (NI for instance has and Native Instruments hardware service). It could be that the firmware and drivers of the hardware is not up to date. It could be that the motherboard BIOS and chipset drivers aren't up to date either. Check Intel driver update website for instance.
 
Assuming this is all ruled out (apparently it has been looking at quote above?) I would check the Windows Event Viewer. Has Windows update been run recently? I also notice Trillian hasn't been ruled out (is that up to date?). Has a VST reset taken place recently? (see my previous post). Is it project specific... Does it happen with new projects? etc

Doktor Avalanche
To be clear I was previously responding to tenfoot's issue who has a completely different issue with Sample Tank 3. I've asked him to create a new thread if the issue persists.

Ups... It sometimes hard to remember who has which problem, especially when the result is WSOD in both cases

This may be unrelated, but worth mentioning. Markyzno dropped a nice tidbit in a video thread about K-Lite codecs. I installed these and the installation scoured my machine and removed 5 or so bad codecs (most were DirectShow, IIRC), replaced them, and removed all the bad reg entries calling them (close to 20).
 
As you mentioned TTS-1 (which is DirectX) installing that codec pack is an idea. It definitely will not hurt, but will also get the crap off your machine (you may not even know about). Here is a link to their download page (I got the "mega" pack (11MB or so), and did the most advanced install option just to watch the installer run).