hodshonf
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Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
hi all, what a great learning experience this time around with Sonar Platinum. it has been YEARS since i've done any serious recording. Techno advances are boggling. i spent the last week setting things up for just capturing simple rhythm sections. Drum loops with recorded bass and guitar. without getting TOO deep into the plugins i've selected so far, i have found placing EQ, Compression, and Reverb as FX on separate stereo bus's'ss and using the recorded channel Aux Send gives me LOADS of flexibility. i still have the "dry" track and i can mix in how much i SEND to the FX as well as the bus'ss'ss's fader level. i used to do this in the olden days with analogue recording. lots of effects and aux sends. custom mixes to headphones and studio, etc... so i've included a screenshot of a simple loop drum track and the routing. any comments would be appreciated. on the plugin side of things, i REALLY like the Variety of Sound line of free plugins. FerricTDS and BootEQII are pretty nice. have a great weekend.
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/06 09:18:32
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AND, i am FINALLY getting a grip on the whole Mid-Side thing. so far, i MUCH prefer a nice tight reverb when applied slightly to the Sides in a final mix. maybe... i may have it all wrong. but it doesn't sound so overwhelming compared to slamming the stereo field with a 'verb - more natural.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/06 09:37:22
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/06 09:56:17
Most (not all!)) of the time it makes sense to use a bus for anything that adds something to the sound (like a reverb) but an insert for something that alters/distorts the source (like EQ/compression). A compressor has limited use if you are not actually compressing the source but only adding a compressed version alongside the original (called parallel compression). It's a cool effect though. Likewise, removing low end rumble from a source won't work if you have the original track running alongside the effected signal. That's the only "critique" I can think of, for the rest, if it sounds good, it is good. Happy mixing!
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/06 09:46:06
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great sutff!!! exactly the kind of comments i am looking for. i like the reverb send. but it makes sense about the EQ and Tape saturation plugins (each have some form of comp/limiting built in) parallel processing, eh? wow, i'm SO sophisticated and i didn't even know it. i'm swinging for the bleachers here. but simplicity is key. i will most likely go back to the EQ and Comp on individual channels. another great point about removing the low end rumble - my OP approach kind of defeats that purpose. fighting itself. i will check out parallel comp/EQ/processing. i can see how that may be a neat effect. thanks! fred
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/06 09:52:22
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just did a search on parallel compression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_compression pretty cool actually. i may investigate this some more. a couple of excerpts: Parallel compressionFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Parallel compression, also known as New York compression, is a dynamic range compression technique used in sound recording and mixing. Parallel compression, a form of upward compression, is achieved by mixing an unprocessed 'dry', or lightly compressed signal with a heavily compressed version of the same signal. Rather than bringing down the highest peaks for the purpose of dynamic range reduction, it reduces the dynamic range by bringing up the softest sounds, adding audible detail. [1] It is most often used on stereo percussion buses in recording and mixdown, on electric bass, and on vocals in recording mixes and live concert mixes. [2] UseThe human ear is sensitive to loud sounds being suddenly reduced in volume, but less so to soft sounds being increased in volume—parallel compression takes advantage of this difference. [2][3] Unlike normal limiting and downward compression, fast transients in music are retained in parallel compression, preserving the "feel" and immediacy of a live performance. Because the method is less audible to the human ear, the compressor can be set aggressively, with high ratios for strong effect. [2] i like it!!!
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/06 09:55:16
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i've been shying away from compression just for what they describe above. i think P/C may be my new fave technique. but regarding the LOW END RUMBLE issue, Sanderxpander you are completely right. for my task, the BoostEQII should be on the channel itself. fantastic! great group!
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Zargg
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/06 09:56:31
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/06 10:17:14
Hi. There is nothing wrong with the way you do it. To repeat what Sander said. If it sounds good, it is good. I usually output my drums to a drums bus. If I use / want parallel processing, I use a send from the drum bus to a "parallel drum bus". But that is just me. You have really been going at it lately, Frederic  Keep at it, and make music. All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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tenfoot
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/06 10:44:18
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/06 11:08:52
hodshonf i've been shying away from compression just for what they describe above. i think P/C may be my new fave technique. but regarding the LOW END RUMBLE issue, Sanderxpander you are completely right. for my task, the BoostEQII should be on the channel itself. fantastic! great group!
Sounds like you are having a lot of fun there hodshonf! FWIW, as exciting as new toys and advanced techniques are, compression is so fundamental to production it may be a good idea to spend some time on basic techniques and really understanding the tools and techniques before jumping headlong into parallel compression. It pays huge dividends in the long run. A mix can get away from you very quickly otherwise. Happy recording:)
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/06 11:02:16
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yes indeedy. i have been spending time with various compressors. what's so great about the latest raft of VST comps, is the graphic displays on many of them. great learning tool. compression was always somewhat of a "black box" processor for me. until this time around. i started experimenting with some simple comp plugins, and whoomp... wow. truly does make sense now. i was getting in deep with the multi-band compressors for a sec, since i wasn't so keen on "straight compression". not for what i am looking for with my projects. talk about something "getting away from you". i know it seems "deep endy-ish" to move so quickly into parallel comp, but i really like the blend of the original material with the comp bus. ... i'm sure this will change when i wake up tomorrow and listen to this stuff in my car! HA! hope you guys don't mind me sharing my "notes from the field". fun stuff. and yes, it's all about the music.
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/06 13:35:07
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interesting! Parallel compression is a technique that, traditionally, splits a track to an effects bus that includes a compressor, which is mixed back in with the track's unprocessed sound. This is most often used with bass and drums so that the dry signal can provide dynamics and transients, while the compressed signal can bring up softer sounds and add more punch or sustain. Many engineers use parallel compression to give a full, big drum sound, but without destroying dynamics. Both ProChannel compressors provide parallel compression via a wet/dry control that's continuously variable between zero percent compressed sound and 100 percent compressed sound. In between, at settings in the 30 percent to 50 percent range, you'll hear useful parallel compression effects. One side effect of using parallel compression is that the compressor settings can be more drastic than would be desirable if you were using the compressor by itself, because the dry signal will preserve the signal's dynamics.
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tenfoot
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/06 13:42:27
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/06 14:44:05
If it's working for you and you are getting the sound you want then more power to you my friend!:)
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/08 18:20:35
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☄ Helpfulby tenfoot 2016/05/08 20:46:08
If you like modern VSTs that give visual clues as to what's going on, check ouf FabFilter's offerings. The Pro-C2 is their compressor. But don't fall into the trap of "looking" for what it's supposed to do ;) Ears should always make the final call. FWIW I also really like parallel compression for the sound it gives you. But it's important to note that many of the traditional duties a compressor is supposed to do, namely evening out dynamics and shaping the transients (attack portion of a sound), only work about half as well if you leave the original untouched. So I agree with tenfoot - check some tutorials on proper compression technique. If you feel that you can never make regular compression sound good, you're probably not doing it right. P/C is simply a different effect that can sound nice but it doesn't exactly replace regular compression.
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/08 18:47:26
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after a weekend with this stuff, i am back to direct compression. it took some digging and learning and LISTENING to truly understand the compression process. feeling pretty comfy with it now. thanks for the reply! hit it on the the peak!
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/08 20:58:12
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here's my layout du jour - getting some great results!!!
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tenfoot
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/08 20:58:48
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/08 21:42:40
Compression is one of those cases of simplicity on the far side of complexity. It will become second nature, but takes a lot of listening and learning along the way. Michael Stavrou (Stav) wrote an article in Audio Technology magazine quite a few years back that was a great starting point, but I can't seem to find it online. His approach is included in his book 'Mixing with your Mind', which though not cheap is worth reading. http://www.mixingwithyourmind.com/index.php
post edited by tenfoot - 2016/05/08 23:13:57
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/08 21:58:14
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looks good. yes, pricey. i worked up a couple of mixes this weekend. i've been forcing myself to start from scratch each session. no templates. makes me listen and think of solutions. i was pleased with the first one. everything in its place. light compression and EQ. nice. the second one, not so much. the levels were good. but it just wasn't happening. i let it sit for a few hours and went back in. i am a HUGE fan of EQ cutting rather than boosting now. a simple cut of the slap bass line around 300hZ to 500hZ and the recording just POPPED! suddenly i could hear the muted slaps and pops. and the low rhythm guitar came through. great fun! ... i called the first tune "Nyquist Blues".
post edited by hodshonf - 2016/05/08 22:19:54
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tenfoot
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/08 23:04:57
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hodshonf looks good. yes, pricey. i worked up a couple of mixes this weekend. i've been forcing myself to start from scratch each session. no templates. makes me listen and think of solutions. i was pleased with the first one. everything in its place. light compression and EQ. nice. the second one, not so much. the levels were good. but it just wasn't happening. i let it sit for a few hours and went back in. i am a HUGE fan of EQ cutting rather than boosting now. a simple cut of the slap bass line around 300hZ to 500hZ and the recording just POPPED! suddenly i could hear the muted slaps and pops. and the low rhythm guitar came through. great fun! ... i called the first tune "Nyquist Blues".
Haha. Cool - after the engineer and not the horse I hope:) I often find walking away from a mix for a while is the answer.
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/08 23:25:21
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you made me google nyquist horse. too funny. weird timing with that. synchronistic... ALIENS! yes, the engineer.
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tenfoot
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/08 23:32:58
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/08 23:54:49
Lol - Indeed! I happened to see a headline on google news and wondered at the time if they had named the horse after the engineer.
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/09 03:42:44
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Any reason your bass recordings are stereo tracks? Are they from softsynths?
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/09 08:09:20
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Sanderxpander Any reason your bass recordings are stereo tracks? Are they from softsynths?
i play bass and guitar with live recorded drum loops. no synths. bass should be mono up the center. it is mono, direct into my Scarlett 18i8 mic pre. from the knowledge bass (!)... Track 4 is an example of a correct mono audio file recording. The input of the track in this case is assigned to "Left VS-100 IN 5-6". When tracking this audio file, we had signal only coming in over Input 5 of our VS-100. Important to note is that the playback meter shows activity in both the left and right channels. Once again, don't forget that a mono audio file can still be mixed in a stereo field as long as the track is assigned to a stereo output. The input source of this track is assigned to a mono input, but the output assignment of this track is assigned to " Stereo VS-100 OUT 1-2". Since the track is panned directly in the center, it is coming out both the left and right channel equally. As a result, we can hear it out of both of our speakers. It is important to note that recording a mono audio file does not mean it only sends out to a mono output, though you can specify this intentionally if it is your desire to do so. </br
post edited by hodshonf - 2016/05/09 08:32:05
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/09 09:18:35
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/09 09:48:46
Yeah just because in your picture with the console a few posts earlier it is a stereo track, or at least the track interleave button is set to stereo. Doesn't really matter that much but if you've been recording stereo files that's kind of a waste of disk space and processing power. And some plugins might behave in an unexpected manner.
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/09 09:34:43
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Sanderxpander Yeah just because in your picture with the console a few posts earlier it is a stereo track, or at least the track interleave button is set to stereo. Doesn't really matter that much but if you've been recording stereo files that's kind of a waste of disk space and processing power. And some plugins might behave in an unexpected manner.
you said track interleave button. yummy. SEE!? this is EXACTLY why i love these forums and post my boneheaded stuff. i was wondering where that was and what it was called! sure, it's all in the ears. and that's the bottom line. but it helps to have some rudimentary techni-know-how too. great post!!! thanks!
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/09 12:06:34
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on the plugin / Sonar version front. i have been using 3rd party plugins, and only a few. i'm not a synth/midi guy. i just use this to record audio. i'm thinking i may go back to just the Artist version. I don't use the Platinum addons. I thought i would use Addictive Drums, but i find it annoying. any thoughts on why i should stay Platinum?
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/09 12:24:40
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/10 10:51:50
I think AudioSnap and Patch points/Aux tracks are the only core differences that don't really have another easy alternative in the form of a third party plugin. Although Melodyne could conceivably do most of the things AS does. And I'm sure there are some VSTs that could do some of those audio routing tricks. I think a forum member made a free one that's basically a patch point. If you remain at Pro instead of Artist, you retain all of those. See here: https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Versions
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Zargg
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/09 12:25:26
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/10 10:51:46
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/10 10:35:51
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reviewing the specs. i kinda like the new pricing scheme. flexible.
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hodshonf
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/10 12:04:31
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wow. it would help if i installed ALL the Platinum stuff. i really can be boneheaded, i thought everything installed with the Platinum Setup. lots of great stuff... may rethink leaving Platinum after all.
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Zargg
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/10 12:41:08
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/10 13:42:14
Yes, there is a massive bunch of stuff to play with
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Critique my routing approach - Aux Send to Custom Bus'ss's
2016/05/10 12:43:12
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☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/05/10 13:42:17
Yeah I wouldn't expect too much of the loops although I've found some useful filler in there from time to time. But there are some pretty high quality "light version" plugins and a bunch of full version useful ones too.
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