Hansenhaus
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Cue Mixes?
Hello,
I'm about to completely jump ship from my Mackie D8B/HDR combo. Up until now I've only been mixing with Sonar and tracking on the Mackie. Over the past few nights I've been experimenting tracking with Sonar. It's a little more tedious in some ways than the ole Mackie stuff but so far so good. There are far too many positives outweighing the negatives. However, I started wondering about a few things and missing others.....
On the D8B I could have three seperate mixes play back simulatenously. The main mix in the control room, cue mix 1 and cue mix 2. This is great when multiple people are recording together but require different mixes to feel comfortable. Is there any way to do this in Sonar?
Also, I will really miss the snapshot window from the D8B. Being able to recall a snapshot at any time or position during playback is a usefull feature. Epecially for A/B'ing different mix versions. Sonar's snapshots are more taylored towards automation than saving a mix scene for recalling later.
How are you running multiple sets of headphones out to your clients?
I have a Samson Headphone amp but I sounds kind of crappy compared to the Mackie Headphone outs.
Thanks,
Eiric
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LionSound
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/10/12 06:18:41
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The way to rout cue mixes in Sonar is via the buses. For example, set up three busses ... bus 1 = Control Room bus 2 = Vocalist bus 3 = Guitarist Then make sure that each bus' output is set to a different set of physical outs on your interface. Next create and rout Sends from the audio tracks that you want to send to each particular bus. You should now have three seperate submixes good to go. As for a headphone amp, I use a Mackie Big Knob, but it only has two headphone outs. They did just release a new headphone matrix that looks really cool though ... check it out on their website. Good Luck!
post edited by GC San Diego Seth - 2006/10/12 06:33:44
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MQ
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/10/12 06:46:04
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Hi,
I'm using M-Audio's Delta-66 which has 6 outputs.
I'm routing the sound thru 3 stereobusses. F.ex
Bus1= Control room speakers
Bus2= Headphone amp (stereo-input and 4 independent headphones)
Bus3= Aux (external reverb, ext sampler ...)
One way is to set up one send per channel in the consoleview so to get independant mix to the headphone Bus.
If you only record/overdub one track a time f.ex a vocalist, and need a fast setup, then you can do a MixMinus approach.
Create a send from your MasterBus to your HeadphonesBus and then only create a send from the audiotrack that the vocalist mic is connected to pointing to the HeadphonesBus.
I'have used several Headphoneamps, and even a cheap one as the Phonic MonitorCentral A6300 (4channels 8-12 headphones, sounds great, and you could inject(mix) another source direct into it.
Regards
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kilgoretrout 
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/10/12 09:08:40
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I am a fellow Sonar/D8B owner. Why would you mix in Sonar instead of on the D8B? If you send MTC to the Mackie, you can automate easily.
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Hansenhaus
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/10/12 13:05:37
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ORIGINAL: kilgoretrout
I am a fellow Sonar/D8B owner. Why would you mix in Sonar instead of on the D8B? If you send MTC to the Mackie, you can automate easily.
Sonar has much better EQ and compression options. Editing is MUCH better with Sonar over the HDR Track count is not limited to 24. Sonar 64-bit engine sounds better than the D8B. I'm not limited to 48Khz. I use the mouse almost all the time and hardly ever touch the console. I might as well use a modern program in the same way. I don't like how the automation editing works on the D8B I already bypass all of the A/D and D/A conversion from the D8B. I'm tired of moving projects over to Sonar from the Mackie. Last but not least, I need money and I sold my D8B/HDR. The buyer will be getting it in a few weeks.
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Hansenhaus
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/10/12 13:15:17
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Seth and MQ,
Thank you for the information. I didn't even think of using the sends/busses. Duh!
I'm using a RME HDSP9652. I guess I would have to get the 4 channel analog I/O daughter card to have multiple analog outputs asigned to a headphone amp. I use to have one too. I sold it back when I was using the D8B/HDR exclusively :(
Eric
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ohhey
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/10/12 13:54:16
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Monitor mixes can be done in Sonar with buses but that also means you must be using input monitoring and in most cases the latency (delay) will drive the talent crazy, I would not do montior mixes that way. There are two main ways monitoring is done in the DAW world (Sonar or other). 1. Use the digital mixer built into the sound card that is controled by a software mixer panel that comes with your sound card. For example the RME HDSP9652 has a big software mixer (and snapshots) remember ? 2. Use a real mixer like the D8B. In both cases you would turn off input montioring in Sonar to prevent echo or feedback. The down side is that because you are not using input monitoring in Sonar the talent will not hear any of the effects plugins in Sonar while tracking, they will only hear the effects after you stop the recording and hit play. The D8B would be handy because it has effects. There are a few sound cards that have effects in hardware for the monitor mix now but not very many, only two that I know of and those have only a few inputs, none of the big ones do. In the case of an hardware mixer the idea is to have a stereo output from your sound card attached to an input on the mixer so you can monitor tracks already recorded. For monitoring tracks already recorded you could use aux sends and buses in Sonar to create a sub mix for each monitor path in the mixer, you just need enough outputs on the sound card to do that and enough headphone amps to accept the mix output pairs of the hardware mixer.
post edited by ohhey - 2006/10/12 14:18:34
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LionSound
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/10/12 14:06:08
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Great call on the latency being an issue ... i totally overlooked that. Using RME's Total Mix software mixer is the way to go. You can rout any input to any output with zero latency within the interface. Its really easy to use and is quite flexible. ORIGINAL: ohhey
Monitor mixes can be done in Sonar with buses but that also means you must be using input monitoring and in most cases the latency (delay) will drive the talent crazy, I would not do montior mixes that way.
There are two main ways monitoring is done in the DAW world (Sonar or other). 1. Use the digital mixer built into the sound card that is controled by a software mixer panel that comes with your sound card. For example the RME HDSP9652 has a big software mixer remember ? 2. Use a real mixer like the D8B. In both cases you would turn off input montioring in Sonar to prevent echo or feedback. The down side is that because you are not using input monitoring in Sonar the talent will not hear any of the effects plugins while tracking, they will only hear the effects after you stop the recording and hit play.
The D8B would be handy because it has effects. There are a few sound cards that have effects in hardware for the monitor mix now but not very many, only two that I know of and those have only a few inputs, none of the big ones do.
In the case of an hardware mixer the idea is to have a stereo output from your sound card attached to an input on the mixer so you can monitor tracks already recorded.
For monitoring tracks already recorded you could use aux sends and buses in Sonar to create a sub mix for each monitor path in the mixer, you just need enough outputs on the sound card to do that and enough headphone amps to accept the mix output pairs of the hardware mixer.
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Hansenhaus
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/10/12 14:15:27
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Hi Frank,
Thanks for the tips.
Perhaps I should reconsider selling the D8B. It's a done deal but I could back out I suppose. I sold all the effects cards from the D8B a while ago becuase I have the Kurzweil KSP-8 to route in external FX. Unfortunately my gig schedule was unexpectedly cut in half along with my weekly income so I need money. I'm tyring to find some new gigs but it's taking time and the bills will not wait. If I can manage to sort out the financial issue I will try and keep the D8B. It's like a big digital patch bay with analog inputs. Maybe I need to reasses it's value as such.
Thanks again,
Eric
PS: Did you participate on the Mackie D8B forum? Your username seems familiar.
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Hansenhaus
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/10/12 14:23:51
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ORIGINAL: GC San Diego Seth
Great call on the latency being an issue ... i totally overlooked that. Using RME's Total Mix software mixer is the way to go. You can rout any input to any output with zero latency within the interface. Its really easy to use and is quite flexible.
How would you connect multiple heaphones (cue mixes) to the RME card? The heaphone amps I know off don't have any digital inputs. I assume you need to have a multi channel analog output. RME does provide a daughter card which I think may do the trick for that. Right now my mixdowns run out the SPDIF on the RME to a DAC-1 D/A converter directly connected to my speakes. Without the D8B I will have no analog outs other than the single main out on the DAC-1. With the optional RME analog card I could send a couple of stereo mixes into my Samson headphone amp and be good to go I think. What ever I/O I'm using for recording will be mixed in the software mixer and bypass the latency of Sonar. This way I could maybe get rid of the D8B. I can add effects from my KSP-8 using the RME software mixer so musicians that are tracking can have some reverb, delay or whatever. What do you think? Eric
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larenzo_alexander
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/11/17 20:19:42
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ohhey,
I'm trying to figure out how to use FW1884 with Sonar and to allow vocalist to hear their vocals in the headphones without using input echo. Right now I have a 4 input headphone preamp connect to the FW1884 headphone input. Then I have headphones connected to the headphone pre amp. Then I have to turn on input echo so the vocalist can hear their vocals in the headphones. And like you said they don't like the delay. If you could explain to me how to do headphone monitoring with FW1884 & Sonar the best way, I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks
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newfuturevintage
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RE: Cue Mixes?
2006/11/17 20:42:00
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I'd use totalmix and output to an ADAT D/A converter feeding a headphone amp. No need for anything too expensive, even something as basic as behringer's ADA8000 would do nicely for 8 balanced outputs (and would give you 8 bonus lo-grade pre's with phantom for about $200). I'm using TotalMix in this way via a fireface; of course it's got enough analog outputs resident to the box that I don't need to use an external DA, but it's the same basic concept. Once you wrap your head around TotalMix, it's a really liberating piece of software. Mighty powerful. For most live sessions I have 3 mixes all done in Total mix: 1. control room: stereo out of Sonar in input echo to make sure I'm not getting any software glitches recorded. 2. headphones for control room: for soloing input channels pre-sonar if needed. 3. studio outs: to talent, in stereo. During tracking, it's just the inputs to the Fireface; for overdubs it's a blend of Sonar's out & the live mic(s). (very rarely) 4. Drummer mix. An eardrum melting cacophony of high SPL soup. This amounts to just 8 outputs total. No biggie. For talent cans, I'm using a Rane Mojo ha4. Its OK. When I've needed more mixes, I've roped in different headphone amps as needed. The corniest being the HP circuit from a $30 soundblaster mp3+ usb card. Hey, it worked 
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