Anderton
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Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
I'm a huge fan of speed comping. As a result, I've been doing quite a bit of it in recent projects. I'm finding that more often than not, the first take has the greatest number of useable sections, with the second take next. There may be a section here and there from a later take, but it seems fairly rare. In the most recent song I posted on YouTube, almost all of it was first take. Has anyone else noticed a similar trend with their comping?
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Soft Enerji
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/25 20:34:35
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I tend to do 3 to 4 takes of vocals and the same with bass............with guitar...............I won't even go there :-). But yes I agree. I get most stuff from the first 2 takes.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/25 20:59:47
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Same here, I learned a long time ago not to be so quick to erase a part I was thinking I sucked on.. My basic template for songs has 3 tracks for each part, Vox, Guitar and bass. So I warm up without record on and get levels set, Then start recording with Vox 1 all the way to the end. Not happy, but I toggle record to Vox 2 and mute Vox 1 and carry on This track I'll stop at the point I screw up slip edit back to a logical cut point before the screw up.. Toggle record to Vox 3, Set the now time a few measures before Vox 2 ends and carry on until next screw up. I flip between Vox 2 and 3 until finished. I then compile a whole track using cut, delete and slide Vox 3 up into Vox 2. I set snap to a Quarter note or whole measure depending. Sonar seems to do a good job of combining the takes at the cut points without artifacts. It looks like it draws little crossfades if you zoom in. Any how, I leave it alone and go work on something else or sleep on it. I come back and listen to Vox 1 and Vox 2 and carry on from there. Sometimes Vox 1 was best and only needs a few parts cut and pasted from Vox 2 to polish up... This is the same for Guitar and bass, Mandolin, Dobro,,, everything real.. Midi I just play as good as I can and edit the one track. Cheating is much more fun with MIDI. It is allowed by me because I am not a keyboard player, or drummer. I guess we have tools for cheating with audio too, but I am not a fan of audio cheating at this point. If I can't sing it, or play it, then why would I try and record it?
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Sacalait
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/25 21:05:48
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for whatever reason I've been getting my best performances- on the average- from the second take. Now I will say that sometimes when I'm sketching a song and the vocalist does a scratch vocal track I tend to gravitate toward that take. There sometimes seems to be a kind of un-seen variable to some first takes- the 'spirit' of the performance. The performer can re-create the notes but not the stuff that was going in the psyche at the time. Thanks for bringing this up man!
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Jimbo21
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/25 22:02:22
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For me, it's also the second take followed by the first take generally. Though sometimes I may totally redo the vocals a couple of days later if I'm not satisfied and on those takes it's also the second and first takes that have the keepers in them.
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Featherlight
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/25 22:16:28
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There seems to be three types of session performers for me. 1: come in and nail it in the first couple of takes and there's lots to work with 2: hunt around for the part and then slowly craft it into a working line, later takes are the most refined 3: kind of like Nuke LaLuche in Bull Durham, all over the map and I end up comping the crap out of it and 'building' the part lol!
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Lynn
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/25 22:30:03
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My first instrument tracks are usually the the keepers, but it take 3 or 4 takes for my voice to warm up. It's remarkable how several of us are using the same or similar techniques. Craig, I love the new comping mode and think it's one of CW's best improvements in years.
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Anderton
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/25 22:40:56
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Featherlight There seems to be three types of session performers for me. 1: come in and nail it in the first couple of takes and there's lots to work with 2: hunt around for the part and then slowly craft it into a working line, later takes are the most refined 3: kind of like Nuke LaLuche in Bull Durham, all over the map and I end up comping the crap out of it and 'building' the part lol!
Interesting...at one point in my life I did a lot of production, and found that certain performers followed a "performance curve." I wrote an article about it...I think you'll find it interesting, as it further explores what you're talking about.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/25 22:46:00
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being spontaneous isn't something we can practice, it happens, its original and once we practice something or get deep in to takes we lose that edge, that raw originality we had in the early stages of creating passages with long brush strokes. I tend to stick to the earlier takes as that's where the magic is, once we polish it can sound to over produced. I find some of my best material came as a young songwriter when I had reckless abandonment in arrangements. not adhering to any special formula's. verse / bridge / chorus. sometimes its as if you are trying to capture your life story in a 3 minute piece. its hard to tell a story that happen 20 years ago with fine detail., you tend to ad-lib. the same can be said for a 4th or 5th take.
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mettelus
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/26 00:41:49
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As I am laying down tracks solo more often than not, I will often cheat and do a take till I hit a snag, back up 2 bars and continue. Not sure how to classify that though? Three partials??
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Grem
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/26 01:42:16
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I will think my best performances were the later takes. But most of the time I use the first and second takes with little bits from the later takes.
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BJN
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/26 02:29:28
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Interesting question! While there are always exceptions I do notice two trends. Magic: is when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation. And the corollary:if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes. (I'm going to make that part of my signature. LOL) A really good sign is to be inspired to continue on or return after a break and lay down a couple more for fun. Another good sign is to re record the whole thing from a different starting point and it'l take on a different feel and while it might be more professional it could be still lacking the initial magic. If you are having fun then you tend to be creating so why not. Going back to the first of the scratch tracks of a project can put it back on track. The Origin: I find usually an accidental of some sorts either a timing or liveliness from the seat of your pants type playing delivers a device that works. I am primarily a bassist and almost always the key to a successful track to me is always the bass line. This is my bias: I only play guitar to have something to play bass too. And I really only play any instrument so I have something to mix. LOLOL Okay I am stretching the truth.
post edited by BJN - 2014/02/26 02:51:42
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stickman393
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/26 13:37:06
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For me it is always Take 2. I usually record Take 1, then record Take 2 while singing along with Take 1. Then I record Take 3 whilst Take 2 accompanies... but then, most times, it's Take 2 that makes the cut. Sometimes 1, sometimes 3, but very rarely 4 or 5.
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VariousArtist
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/26 13:47:05
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chuckebaby being spontaneous isn't something we can practice, it happens, its original and once we practice something or get deep in to takes we lose that edge, that raw originality we had in the early stages of creating passages with long brush strokes. I tend to stick to the earlier takes as that's where the magic is, once we polish it can sound to over produced. I find some of my best material came as a young songwriter when I had reckless abandonment in arrangements. not adhering to any special formula's. verse / bridge / chorus ...
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Cactus Music
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/26 14:36:07
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I was thinking that one factor for me is, if I'm recording something brand spanking new or something I have played a zillion times live. This makes for a totally different performance matrix. If it's something new, Then I will have to craft it into something worthwhile. If it is something I have long experience with, it should be the first take is the best. But then recording always brings to light screw ups we didn't always notice on stage....
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wizard71
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/26 14:41:07
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Although I agree with the above post, by variousartist I also disagree. The magic can also come from knowing a song well enough to perform it correctly. Whilst the magic may not be there for the performer still, it may just create it for the first time listener. I just perform each take as many times as it takes for me to like it. Sometimes it's one, sometimes it's cobbled from 10 different takes.
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BJN
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/26 18:36:49
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------------------------------------------------------- Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation. And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes. Bart Nettle
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bapu
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/26 22:27:57
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What's comping? Some if us get it right the first time. Not me, BTW. Seriously, I'm not a fan of comping (for me). I guess it's a throw back to tape days. Get it all in a take, and punch what I screw up. If the whole take has several screw ups, start over.
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Vastman
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/26 22:52:15
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Ok, after reading your article, Craig... I'm the anything goes type and I find comping EXHILARATING! I'm loving comping as it really allows for experimenting... For bass guitar, I am really enjoying laying down a simple part then comping wild things till my fingers freak. As I'm using diva, Iceni (low orchestrals) more and more these days for the low end, bass guitar is no longer "bass" but a rhythmic instrument. I rarely used it before this year but picked up a couple lovelies and am having a blast wanking geddy style and COMPING makes this totally awesome... Just did an all nigher on a new song and when it came to bass, I never came close to the same part... just wildly free formed and it was totally rad. Couldn't have done this without the comping tools....without a huge pain in the ars no fun edit... comping made it fun! Result is amazing! Vocally, I'm doing something similar... I'll have a set of words (sometimes) and a basic structure (damage/some vst) but riff out along the way, trying different inflections or entirely different words/melodies. Then, I'll comp for awhile and it really results in spontaneous combustion. Harmonies are wonderful with comping... I like singing very high and very low parts, non traditional interweaves at times... and I'll lay down one to three tracks, with comps in each and again, start playing. Sometimes for basic harmonies it's just a great tool and can't really say which one nails it, although for high parts, earlier is better as I loose my throat control trying to do them... All I can really say is I find comping to be the BEST thing I've ever experienced. I've never spent so much time writing music. It is hard to stop now, and fun to start! I could never say that before, going back to Sonar 6...
post edited by Vastman - 2014/02/27 00:32:48
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kzmaier
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/27 12:38:59
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My best take is always the one when I'm not recording. Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! I've got to learn to hit record even when I'm just experimenting.
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denverdrummer
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/27 16:36:38
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I think it comes down to creativity vs. time management. My rule of thumb, I only work with 3 takes or 4 at the most. If I'm having to decide between comping sections on10 different takes, my head would explode. When I lay down drum tracks, I know I am most likely to screw up coming in or out of a fill. This is where spontaneity, can kill you. Getting too energetic can cause me to rush through a fill. I like what Vastman said, lay down something simple then use comping if you want to experiment. As to the original question, yes I use most of the first take, but then it's mostly because I know where I've screwed up on the first take, and what sections went well, and what I need to concentrate on in the proceeding takes.
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Zig
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/27 17:57:27
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My record is 39 takes of a guitar track, though I seem to always get the keepers around takes 4-7. Oddly enough, as a photographer my keepers often seem to be frames 4-10. I put this down to fidgeting and beating my mind into obedience for the first few minutes...then having boredom, backache or a blood-sugar dip after about 45 mins.
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paulo
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/27 18:21:02
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Instruments I tend to stop and re-do as I'm going along if I mess up, maybe edit midi a little at the end to tighten a few bits up, but generally by the time I've gotten to the end of the song, that's the finshed track. Main vocals I usually do 3 or 4 takes all the way through, depending on how well I think I did, but usually end up using most of take 1 or 2 with the odd phrase from 3 or 4. BGV I am usually making up as I go along, so that will be more of a stop/start thing. I don't usually do any correction on BGV's and will just record until it sounds reasonable. Haven't ever thought about why I do that, I just do. Never really thought about there being a pattern to the takes before, but it's true in my case and interesting to see that others find the same thing. Haven't really got to grips with the new comping method yet, still doing it the old 8.5 way (Sorry Craig!).
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auto_da_fe
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/27 19:34:53
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The great thing about the comping feature is that every take now I just keep playing all the way through a song whether I screw it up or make a minor mistake. I used to stop after every mistake and start over again. ( I make a lot of mistakes...) Usually I use most of take 1 or 2 and then fix the mistakes with take 3 or 4. Now that I know how easy it is to comp, I am much more relaxed on every take....thanks cake !
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Curious if Anyone Is Having a Similar Comping Experience
2014/02/28 09:15:52
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Featherlight There seems to be three types of session performers for me. 1: come in and nail it in the first couple of takes and there's lots to work with 2: hunt around for the part and then slowly craft it into a working line, later takes are the most refined 3: kind of like Nuke LaLuche in Bull Durham, all over the map and I end up comping the crap out of it and 'building' the part lol!
These 3 types describe it really well! I see mostly type #1 and #2 (thank god) ... I reckon, #1 is also related to who wrote the material i.e. if you are a skilled musician and you wrote the part, you're deeply into it from take #1 and the spontanous first few takes are the magic ones ... sometimes you end up tracking more to make the artist happy, and then comp out of the first 3 takes in your lonesome editing session ... If you write for other people and they come in to record your material, you have a type #2 situation: it might take quite a while to put them into the right picture, mood, feel, intensity, ... so you end up recording a 'zillion' takes, each one being better ... if that happens you need your motivation skills to squeeze everything out of the performer and stop as soon as you reach the plateau ... then I use the last 3 takes (the last being one being the convincing performance that made you stop recording, the others being backup for things you discover when cleaing the tracks) If you have type #3 in the rec room, you might as well stop and hit the bar early - I don't believe that a fully comped performance will go thru as a real performance; even if you technically might not hear it, the audience will feel that something is not quite natural So bottomline for me: there's no point comping out of more than 3 takes really (the exception may be a multi-mic'd drum session with very sensitive timing)
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