Helpful ReplyDAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself?

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Sir Les
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/05 22:49:06 (permalink)
http://www.boot-disk.com/boot_priority.htm
 
 
 
This is done on a dell machine?...well that might be the problem...link says on this page link they are using a dell machine...never did I buy into Dell...So, I know not your problem, with poorly written manual, and irq management issues, not allowing???....Should be telling you time is ticking away on da dell tossed in well to do...hitting brick walls...hmmm?...g41 chipset is nothing but problems!!!!...As I said this dell, is not newer..it is old...And dual core...So, PCI to PCI-e bridge is put by OS to solve the non existence of one!...As a service is now required to do what the chipset lacks in having, and most likely Celluron cpu.
 
Also Dell make their own motherboards...So, most probably you'll get better help from Dell...but g41 that ain't new..oh power supply suck also on those machines...I fixed a couple...too many limitations..slow as cold honey using xp!
 
Yah..best to just use one thing..and make it audio..nothing else...try that...and remove the wall...?
post edited by Sir Les - 2017/09/05 23:41:26

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SonicExplorer
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/06 03:58:22 (permalink)
No, it's NOT a Dell.  I was saying my prior machine was  Dell and it allowed for all the tweaks in the BIOS, AND it also worked with Windows so every device had it's own IRQ.  I had THREE sound cards in that box - M-Audio, Firewire/RME, and SBLive and it all mapped over into the OS wonderfully.   This "newer" box is a kit-computer with Intel DG41 board.  It is a dual core Pentium and has PCI and PCIe slots.   Twice as fast as the Dell and is more than adequate horsepower for anything I will ever need.  But you think the G41 chipset is bad??....
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/06 10:48:21 (permalink)
I am one of the Dell "forumites" (have been since 2002).  Dell's get a bad rap but are as good as any "factory made" (HP, Acer, etc) on the market.  Dell had some support issues when they moved consumer support overseas but as just about everyone uses "off shore" support its no longer the issue it once was.   Dell used to use a lot of custom/proprietary items in their desktop PC's but have went to mostly "standard ATX" compliance when the Inspiron desktop line replaced the Dimension Desktop line about 6 or 7 years ago.        

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#33
Sir Les
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/06 13:14:17 (permalink)
Ok..You are using a DG41 chipset...Unclear manual and support?...and you saying "bios is not having these features to assign PCI slots and IRQs"    //....Perhaps is telling you it does not support it in bios.
 
But...if you reduce the IRQ's being used to some but not all...You might gain to move one to be free, if you free up some....how to, is remove, disable, and tweak or test....only you can, if using and having it before you to try to do.
 
IDE on board?
SATA 1 or 2?
This is why the G41 is added a D? DG41...both old having some, IDE, floppy support?... and newer  SATA ports added, were added as new, with usb updates also to usb2?..and you adding in more cards of usb...and another card of firewire...what about video?...onboard and or slotted type?....So, as you see, keyboard and mouse also...serial and coms...nic and or wi fi....all take up what is left over...and are hard wired some to....if no switch is put in bios control...how does one turn it off or disable the call for services start up on boot for the use there of, not not be used...MS config is the answer?....
 
So, here is where you might find it hard to move anything, or disable ...they filled it already with the sata addition...and usb...also...and ide...and most likely a video chip....doesn't leave much wiggle room eh?.
 
So...as some and I have said...it ain't easy..even if you get it to do it...it will still cause issues!...Right?...and you have them...surely trying...then, if you try all...the wall will come down one way or another.....And you will see.
 
I think some assignment was set as...IDE 1 and 2/ Floppy drives...were set to a specific IRQ...if you free them up...you might gain the use of...But then again...the OS might reserve those for , as storage device lanes or such services set for if detected to run on and with....if you cannot defeat them in Bios.
 
You might try to use the device manager, but some issues may arise using ...is to try and see if you can, turn off what is not necessary first!...if not doing, all irqs being used, will only result in sharing states!...it does not support the OS XP...features XP had to offer in allowing irq management...or you are not freeing up any?....is the only solution I see being ...The wall you made...and saying this is not able to be done...but you might be overlooking how to first free them up...then they can be used....is not always so!..it depends on how they are disabled sometimes...so that the OS does not detect them, when being installed as first time os put... and thus the OS sees first and puts in the services for...and install the base services for what you say cannot be disabled in bios..ties it to services....If you install the os with these things enabled, the installation of the OS will put services on for them, and boot them up when booting...So, you may have to end some services to manual modes...Hence Tweaking or hacking them also...might be something to think about....And or, a setup of Bios first, then install the OS...stops the os from putting holds on irq management and shared states...and or placement holders for!
 
Now some of this stuff can be disabled..ide, and usb, com, serial and or other features in bios or not?...then try it out...you will get one or the other...that removes one from the sharing of..what you want not shared....Right?.
 
If it does not let you, is because the irqs are full and or over fully used!...and the ones the OS will not share, are being used, you might have over looked can be disabled, some how, some way...or not.
 
If you say not....then?...should I argue?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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#34
SonicExplorer
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/06 18:48:25 (permalink)
SirLes, here is the exact board:  https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/boards-and-kits/desktop-boards/000023823.html
 
You can look at the tech prod spec and see what's involved.
 
It has a floppy controller but no IDE.  SATA and USB 2 onboard. 
 
I disabled Serial, LPT and LAN prior to installing OS.  But I am starting to wonder if maybe I should have left things enabled and then maybe XP would have shared devices on those IRQ's.  I could have then gone back into BIOS and disabled things, leaving desired devices on their own IRQ?   Because now, the way I installed things, those IRQ's are completely open and unused.
 
I am concerned also about these "PCI Standard PCI to PCI Bridge" device entries in DevMgr.  What are those things???  I don't have ANY of those "devices" in my old Dell machine.  Is that indicating some cheap motherboard design where extra bridge chips are used or something?  Does that mean everything on the PCI bus is having to arbitrate through whatever those "devices" are ??
 
Sonic
#35
abacab
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/06 22:21:00 (permalink)
Required reading.  Good overview of Deferred Procedure Calls (DPCs).
 
http://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml

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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/06 23:55:56 (permalink)
Way ahead of you, already tested with that tool weeks ago.  Just ran it again. It's showing 3us.
 
But DPC's are not the only issue here, they are kernel driver routines separate and apart from IRQ and INT lines.   A driver is not even required to register a DPC, and in fact may well not.  I am still not clear if the IRQ (or PIRQ as the case may be) is the key mechanism for the APIC/OS device management or not, because if so then the subject of DPC's is only indirectly related and not necessarily a factor in all cases.
 
Look at it this simple way: If IRQ didn't matter then why have them? Or why not just put everything on the same IRQ.  No, instead it very much can matter IMO.  Maybe in a Utopian world where all devices & drivers behave properly, and enough horsepower is present, there wouldn't be a problem.  But that's just not the case in reality.  Which is why DAW users still occasionally have to resort to changing BIOS settings or moving cards around to have different IRQ/INT assignments.
 
If I'm wrong then please point me at more information because I've been searching around for days and can't find anything to really clarify this.
 
Sonic
 
#37
bvideo
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/07 01:34:17 (permalink)
An alternative monitor is LatencyMon. Besides DPCs, it also monitors interrupt service routines (ISRs). These days, most high priority I/O processing is done in DPCs, and that's the major cause of latency (the kind that prevents servicing audio on time). A really old or badly designed driver might hang on to an ISR too long, but this has nothing to do with shared IRQs. (Sometimes we hear about some wifi or network drivers causing latency problems, but IRQ sharing has nothing to do with it.)
 
The ability of your h/w and s/w to service your DAW audio on time is what determines your minimum audio buffer latency. What prevents your DAW from getting scheduled on time is ISR and DPC processing (assuming you are running just your DAW and not some other heavy processes).
 
LatencyMon lays it all out for you, and tells you which ISRs and DPCs to worry about, if any. The previously mentioned latency checker is enough to tell you whether you're ok or not. It checks by periodically asking the system to run a DPC, then checking how long it takes to get it done. That's a good indicator of how fast your DAW can get ahold of a processor when it needs one. 3us max is good. LatencyMon goes a lot further, counting and timing ISRs and DPCs, and should set your mind at ease if you are still worried about IRQs.

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SonicExplorer
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/07 01:56:50 (permalink)
Darn, I was all excited to try LatencyMon but when I ran it, it said requires Vista or higher now.   Most of the software on the site still supports XP, but unfortunately not LatencyMon.  :-(
 
Anybody have an older revision that runs on XP? 
 
#39
abacab
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/07 02:27:34 (permalink)
SonicExplorer
Darn, I was all excited to try LatencyMon but when I ran it, it said requires Vista or higher now.   Most of the software on the site still supports XP, but unfortunately not LatencyMon.  :-(
 
Anybody have an older revision that runs on XP? 
 




Sorry, that is why I recommended DPC Latency Checker for XP.  LatencyMon is best for Win 8.1 and 10.
 
But the core of the issue is can the CPU service all the requests it receives in time to avoid a delay in the audio buffer?
 
IRQ sharing was moved to a virtual status years ago, and manual assignment is no longer the end users responsibility.  Plug and play OS is the default setting in most BIOS these days, and takes care of those details.
 
So if that's still an issue, all I can recommend is to update to a modern OS, run LatencyMon, and work it out...

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#40
Sir Les
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/07 10:32:59 (permalink)
Are you using the floppy port?...If not turn it off...it is redundant...right?
 
Now as irq assignments go, I believe some are reserved for OS, and pnp holders for OS to put or assign when this is set in some bios to none..You gain some control over managing of those attributes...You must try to see that is clearly understood first...some , and some of your wall will go away you put, saying it does not have or does not allow, or cannot do, or It just cannot do...Are all the things you need to solve for...Not me, I just said it can be one, And I have done it...That is , I did it that way and other ways, None solve any issues I was having...So, it might work for you, but I doubt it will solve any issues!...or it puts ,in the way of you doing any management of or for when PNP OS is used ..and you put too much in, or of wanting put... closed systems ID dictates to the OS a set list of default requirements be placed when installing of OS and some id info must be gleened by the OS to see what it has to put to make the mb bootable, and have some features working properly , as detected as enabled,... or full system setup by Dell or other as self contained units bought as already setup, and chipsets and bus/slot routings...sometimes are hard to break and remake into something they were not designed for...as some are known to be problematic..with third party devices....Firewire is a Non PC device of legacy...It might work, but apple is the holder of the legal rights?..I know MS may have worked on with...But, USB is MS OSes Baby...and it will cause problems...for other third party devices...So you move to that protocol....It is in the best interests of MS to push its own development, and push its own ports....So Good luck with that.
 
it is like Explorer and Netscape wars...what happened to netscape ?...gone?...wow, and I thought they won the trial wars, and MS Lost the default fighting...and now edge is still tied to OS with Bing!.
 
 
Any hoot...You see where I see Hay only feeds the horse so long.,,until the horse forgets the pasture is poisoned with...lies and liars!...So some fine soul made Elephants that never forget!....lol
 
Win 10 at its first conception...and the way it was pushed on some...Ruined any TB, or firewire and some new systems, and audio went buggy more so with streaming and internet, and audio device issues and plug ins went also into some sort of spin in hold mode, until MS got things proper...Not sure even now it is completely solved for the damages...and a lot of devices did not work because of...and then they sent down the candy crush games and such...all free!...to tie up even more, and put more things on or upon without permissions, and set default setups to their own reset by!
 
Now some say, it was just to remove and reinstall the drivers, to solve for?...not all worked as said to do, and game mode is put to solve, and the download issues of those games to solve, plus reset all the tweaks and such...circles ontop of circles....always fixing the PC.
 
Win 7 on my motherboard today, has no internet services, or device working proper, so it says in event viewer and logs made..and the icon is covered by a circle and line of red over it on the task bar...
 
Oh yes, some found a way to fix this...But it does not work here!.
 
Internet is working...but it says, and logs every so often a log file saying this service cannot run, because the device is not working properly....when it is.
and it says it is off...when it is not.
 
And so...MS sucks at a lot of things.
 
Just saying, it may be written do this to fix that , try that, fiddle this in, and fiddle this out...update, upgrade, and pay more for more of...the same old same old.
 
Now when you get the snitzel of the best of PC parts and put in the time and effort to make a real fine build....Consider multiple paths of ...multi boot, and multi os platforms to run that with RND of OSes for PC..Do not just use MS os...as it is seemingly Buggy for a reason!.
 
Then you can make the machine that best services you.
Not the other way around?...well tables must turn eventually!.
 
Now if after all these fine people chimming in...and I cannot give you any solutions...with links or not...nor get you or the bios of which I have no control over...to do, what it cannot do...who can you think...we can read your manual and solve what you cannot solve, with that machine...not in my hands?..or seeing is believing?...I cannot fix...if you have it...You have to find the way...I can not point you in the right direction...I only offer you good advice.
 
turn off what is not necessary...or being used....and you free up the sharing!...and that is all you can do, so you say...Do it...and it is done.
 
or..get a better machine...with a better bios and OS...or use XP..turn off redundancies, put slots and device/irq, and such to make exclusive irq proper, then install the OS...no PNP os set if so can be?..Not sure about that ?...and get the drivers sorted manually.
 
That is how I do it now...Because, if you do not do it liken this...MS OS will put defaults in..and hold them even if you put never drivers...those defaults will be hidden it put, and in some cases they revert to those things, instead of, or they do not allow the new driver be used..because MS believes it has installed the best drivers already!.
 
Now that, is a sure twisting being witnessed also in windows 10.
and some cannot install new drivers...and some things just disappear when installed....wow...
 
So if you are  having issues with XP...I feel your pain...But I can only say...IRQ management is iffy at best@ if you can put up with the crap of MS..and say I like the way it works for me....Read up on the how to do they put for you to go in circles.
 
I know...I am the two thousand year old Elephant with long hair now and a tan!
 
 
Just saying...lol.
 
 
 
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#41
SonicExplorer
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/07 18:21:27 (permalink)
The only remaining possibility I can think of at the moment is turning everything on in the BIOS (LPT, COM, LAN, Etc) and have the firewire card also installed at that time.  Then re-install the OS to see if maybe it decides to move things around differently IRQ wise when it sees a fully populated machine, rather than trying to hide everything at install.    That's about the only other idea I have left at this point.    Oh...and maybe installing the chipset drivers at OS install instead of afterwards.  Not quite sure how to do that however given the chipset download is in post-OS-installation format.
 
One strange observation I noticed is that if I install the OS with no graphic driver then the OS uses the default VGA driver and maps it to IRQ11.  But if I install the proper graphic driver the OS moves it to IRQ 16.  It's like the machine is possessed by a demon that insists on moving everything in the system onto the same IRQ16.  Everything that isn't a legacy device is on IRQ16 - EXCEPT for the USB bus/ports - only 1 out of the 6 USB ports is on IRQ16.   
 
I don't get it...never seen anything quite like this before.....   
 
Sonic
#42
SonicExplorer
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/07 21:35:18 (permalink)
So, I just tried lowering my latency to see what would happen.  With RME's awesome WDM/Kernel drivers I am able to get down to 10ms latency.   If I attempt one setting lower (5ms) it sounds all static-filled.  10ms is plenty fine for me though in terms of being able to input "real-time" MIDI drum beats just for the sake of programming drum tracks.   I also noticed however the 'denormalization' issue that used to be present with Pentium 4 CPU's is still there with the Pentium Dual Core (E5700) to an extent.  That's unfortunate.   I'm also sometimes encountering a louder than normal "pop" when playback stops, which I've narrowed down as coming from DFH Superior Synth tracks.  Otherwise, overall things seems to be functioning pretty well thus far.

Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/09/08 03:27:20
#43
Sanderxpander
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/08 13:19:58 (permalink)
Good to hear it's functioning well. I think you have a very old fashioned view of how IRQs are supposed to work. For instance, PCIe doesn't even have any hardware interrupt lines. The fact that IRQ16 even comes into play should tell you that you're working with virtual IRQs - old-fashioned "hardware" IRQs run 0 to 15.
Although I don't know exactly how advanced XP is in handling this stuff, it seems it's handling your stuff just fine.
#44
SonicExplorer
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/08 20:56:43 (permalink)
Understood, but clearly there's something relevant going on.  Because if IRQ's didn't matter then why have them??  And why are the USB ports broken up among various IRQ's but nothing else? Why not just put them all on IRQ16 as well??   Clearly there is a trigger & processing, whatever that may be.  If it isn't an IRQ in the traditional sense then it's something similar, and all these "devices" on the same IRQ cannot be good is what I still maintain.  If it wasn't an issue then the system could simply put EVERYTHING on the same IRQ, or even use none at all, right?
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Sanderxpander
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/08 21:41:29 (permalink)
Because the USB ports are legacy hardware? Exactly what you said before. Still don't understand why you are insisting this is a problem when your system is working fine.
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abacab
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Re: DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? 2017/09/09 01:37:10 (permalink)
I agree that dedicated IRQ requests are not relevant to PCIe, and are for legacy ISA based systems.  Since APIC systems are the norm today, which have been standard for many years, a virtual IRQ is to be expected.
 
Google APIC and there are some interesting discussions on the topic. 

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