yummay
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 396
- Joined: 2003/11/06 09:01:58
- Location: Canada, Quebec
- Status: offline
DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DAW?
Hello sonarites!
I'm tired of dual boots (too much maintenance... ok... i'm lazy...) and I am wondering if installing / activating a WIN10 virtual machine on my DAW would impact it's performance when working in SONAR...
I would use this virtual machine for basic everyday needs other than music production.
In other words, when the VM is OFF, is it actually 100% off at that point or is there some kind of heavy background service still running on my DAW somewhere?
Thanks!
Yummay, Amuses-gueules sonores Bite-sized sounds and harmonic entrées Dell Studio 1747 (I7), Tascam US20x20, Yamaha 01v96V2 / Behringer ADA 8000, Godin LGXT+ Roland GR-09, Behringer Motor 49. Windows 10 (64), Sonar Platinum, Komplete 10, Sound Forge 10, Vegas pro 9, Waves Gold.
|
fireberd
Max Output Level: -38 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3704
- Joined: 2008/02/25 14:14:28
- Location: Inverness, FL
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/29 15:15:14
(permalink)
I've never used VM, but I've seen reports of users with peripheral problems in VM (e.g. printers). I don't think it would be a good idea for general PC use.
I use mine for both general PC work and Internet, and for my DAW. When I use Sonar I disable the NIC (Ethernet) so I'm off line and that eliminates a potential dropout problem (that I've had in the past with the NIC enabled).
One thought, join the Win 10 "Insiders Program" and get the Win 10 Insider version(s) on a dual boot. You could then use the Insider OS for general PC and boot to the other Win 10 for Sonar.
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
|
Jim Roseberry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9871
- Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
- Location: Ohio
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/29 15:18:20
(permalink)
You can use a DAW for general-purpose duty.
The more "general-purpose", the more diligent you need to be about keeping the machine clean/lean.
You also need to be diligent about having proper backups (you should do this regardless).
|
abacab
Max Output Level: -30.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4464
- Joined: 2014/12/31 19:34:07
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/29 20:05:19
(permalink)
Dual boot is necessary if you need to connect audio hardware directly to the OS, such as with DAW software. A VM guest OS doesn't support real-time audio or MIDI, as far as I know. I have not used Hyper V yet, but I installed the free Oracle VirtualBox https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/VirtualBox on my DAW PC. But just like any other program, when VirtualBox is not running it consumes no resources, other than some GB allocated to its virtual hard drive (which can be on an external drive). Depending on how you set it up, it may install some network drivers for use by the guest VM's when they are running, but they stay out of the way unless you are actually using them. I have also worked with the free VMWare Player, which also works well, but I prefer the full featured VirtualBox better. VM's are good choice for a secondary OS that is not tied to specific hardware drivers. Much simpler to use than dual boot, once you get it set up. I currently run Windows XP in a VM, as well as a few Linux distros. If you run Windows as a guest, you will need an additional license to activate it. I also tested with a Windows 7 Pro install and it ran fine as a VM guest. The mouse and keyboard is captured when you open a VM window, and returns to the host when you minimize the window. Video, sound, and network drivers don't seem to be an issue today. USB and CDROM devices can pass thru to the guest VM. You can share clipboard and/or specific folders, if desired, between host and guest. If you want, you can even run a seamless desktop, and have windows from the guest VM appear directly on your host workspace. How cool is that? I have some old software that will not run on Windows 10, but this lets me run it on XP, side by side with my Win 10 apps.  So far, I can find no drawbacks with this method, other than the comment at the top of this post.
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
|
abacab
Max Output Level: -30.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4464
- Joined: 2014/12/31 19:34:07
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/29 20:15:18
(permalink)
And I forgot to mention, if you have dual monitors, you can have the VM session on a separate monitor from the host. 
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
|
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2567
- Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
- Location: West Midlands, UK
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/29 23:51:55
(permalink)
Why bother installing a VM or dual booting? There's nothing much about a PC set up to be a good DAW that would interfere with general PC usage, and if anything interferes with the DAW side of things just don't run that software and a DAW at the same time. Most DAW Windows tweaking nowadays amounts to over-riding the energy conservation stuff, and software won't suffer because of that.
I used to dual boot back in the days of XP and Vista but stopped bothering at Win 8. Can't say I found the DAW performance suffering at all. Though I don't let anything auto-update whnever it wants to, which could cause a problem, and I set up Windows Defender to ignore anything to do with Sonar and audio files, then switched off real-time monitoring when using Sonar. I've avoided wifi networking on PCs for years, I've yet to find an active ethernet LAN connection causing a problem.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
|
abacab
Max Output Level: -30.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4464
- Joined: 2014/12/31 19:34:07
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/30 00:43:14
(permalink)
tlw
Why bother installing a VM or dual booting? There's nothing much about a PC set up to be a good DAW that would interfere with general PC usage, and if anything interferes with the DAW side of things just don't run that software and a DAW at the same time. Most DAW Windows tweaking nowadays amounts to over-riding the energy conservation stuff, and software won't suffer because of that.
I used to dual boot back in the days of XP and Vista but stopped bothering at Win 8. Can't say I found the DAW performance suffering at all. Though I don't let anything auto-update whnever it wants to, which could cause a problem, and I set up Windows Defender to ignore anything to do with Sonar and audio files, then switched off real-time monitoring when using Sonar. I've avoided wifi networking on PCs for years, I've yet to find an active ethernet LAN connection causing a problem.
I think the whole point here is that you can get the DAW set up and tweaked just the way you like it, and don't risk messing with it by installing general purpose applications and internet facing stuff. Use Windows 7, 8, or 10, whatever you like best, and lock it down. Only update as needed, and make as few changes to the environment as absolutely necessary. Smooth sailing for the DAW. Then use a VM as your second personal computer. Put all your crap on that, your office stuff, email, surf the internet. Update it at will. Just take snapshots along the way, or make clones, and roll it back if you crap it up, or it gets malware. The whole VM thing is sandboxed from your DAW software. And by using bridged networking via your PC network adapter, it gets its own IP address directly from your LAN router. If this sounds like it's too much trouble for you, then just ignore it. Run your PC however you like :-)
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
|
patm300e
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
- Total Posts : 845
- Joined: 2007/09/28 09:14:18
- Location: USA - Maryland
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/30 11:43:37
(permalink)
I think it is hard enough to get MIDI and audio to work together real time especially for high track count, lots of effects and/or instruments. I would hate to add another layer of abstraction to the "mix".
 SPLAT on a Home built i3 16 GB RAM 64-bit Windows 10 Home Premium 120GB SSD (OS) 2TB Data Drive. Behringer XR-18 USB 2.0 Interface. FaderPort control.
|
Jim Roseberry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9871
- Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
- Location: Ohio
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/30 13:16:15
(permalink)
You can use a DAW for general-purpose tasks.
Just need to be all the more diligent... (keeping machine clean/lean, proper backup, etc)
|
abacab
Max Output Level: -30.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4464
- Joined: 2014/12/31 19:34:07
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/30 14:20:41
(permalink)
patm300e
I think it is hard enough to get MIDI and audio to work together real time especially for high track count, lots of effects and/or instruments. I would hate to add another layer of abstraction to the "mix".
I think that you may have misunderstood the question. The OP was asking if a VM could co-exist on his DAW without interfering, not whether to run his DAW in a VM. My answer is absolutely yes it can. I have been using VM's successfully for several years, and they are a great way of testing software, or older versions of Windows, without risking your main OS setup. You are correct that real-time use of the hardware, such as audio or MIDI, is not possible from within a viritualized (abstracted) environment (yet).
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
|
abacab
Max Output Level: -30.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4464
- Joined: 2014/12/31 19:34:07
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/30 14:23:56
(permalink)
Jim Roseberry
You can use a DAW for general-purpose tasks.
Just need to be all the more diligent... (keeping machine clean/lean, proper backup, etc)
True, but that wasn't the OP's question, was it?
In other words, when the VM is OFF, is it actually 100% off at that point or is there some kind of heavy background service still running on my DAW somewhere?
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
|
Jim Roseberry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9871
- Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
- Location: Ohio
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/30 16:37:37
(permalink)
abacab
True, but that wasn't the OP's question, was it?
No it wasn't...  Setting up a VM is overkill (not necessary) just to run Word/Excel/etc.
|
abacab
Max Output Level: -30.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4464
- Joined: 2014/12/31 19:34:07
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/30 18:12:46
(permalink)
Jim Roseberry
abacab
True, but that wasn't the OP's question, was it?
No it wasn't...
Setting up a VM is overkill (not necessary) just to run Word/Excel/etc.
Yes, you are entitled to have an opinion Jim. But the OP was not soliciting opinions on the pros/cons of using a VM. His question was whether a VM would have any impact on his DAW performance. He has been dual booting, which some might consider overkill these days. CPU supported hardware virtualization is now the norm in Intel Core processors, with Intel® Virtualization Technology (VT-x). VM guest OS performance is nearly as good as with the host OS, with the exception of real-time capability. Some people choose not to use their DAW for anything but studio use. That's a personal decision. Some use a 2nd computer, or dual boot, for everyday computing. A VM is just another solution set, not better or worse than the other methods. But it does work very well on modern PC hardware, and is really very simple to use, once you get over the curve with the first one.
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
|
abacab
Max Output Level: -30.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4464
- Joined: 2014/12/31 19:34:07
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/30 18:34:56
(permalink)
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
|
yummay
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 396
- Joined: 2003/11/06 09:01:58
- Location: Canada, Quebec
- Status: offline
Re: DAW gurus: Drawbacks using Win10 pro's Virtualisation (hyper-v) for office use on a DA
2017/03/31 19:27:25
(permalink)
Thanks very much guys for the input! I'll think about this.
Just realized I attempted to answer this thread yesterday, but it seems I forgot to hit "submit" LOL...
... I guess I should stop blaming shipping companies for not receiving the goods "I ordered"... ;-)
Thanks again!
Yummay, Amuses-gueules sonores Bite-sized sounds and harmonic entrées Dell Studio 1747 (I7), Tascam US20x20, Yamaha 01v96V2 / Behringer ADA 8000, Godin LGXT+ Roland GR-09, Behringer Motor 49. Windows 10 (64), Sonar Platinum, Komplete 10, Sound Forge 10, Vegas pro 9, Waves Gold.
|