TriangleRocks
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DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
I'm currently working on a project with a fairly impressive (some might say I'm using the wrong word here, that "ludicrous" might be more appropriate) track count. I essentially use Sonar X3 as an unlimited multitrack recorder (no soft synths at all), but there are a few plugins on some tracks. I am currently at 97 tracks, and it's likely that this project will exceed 150 tracks by the time we're finished with it (we are trying to achieve a pretty dense sound). I am a firm believer in reamping, so every guitar track on this project (and there are LOTS of guitar tracks) has a corresponding direct track so that if the band decides they want a different sound later on, we can simply reamp without having to re-record. Probably half the tracks are scratch tracks, and all those tracks have been archived, along with all the direct tracks. Yesterday, Sonar started halting on one particularly dense section of the song, and I noticed that the Disk I/O icon had gone red. I monitored the disk I/O, and it was hovering between 60% and 88% most of the song, but upon attempting to play that section, went to 100%, and Sonar would just give up. I've been poking around here on the forums this morning, and found a couple of posts about I/O buffers, which were set to 256 for both recording and playback. I doubled the recording buffers (512) and quadrupled the playback buffers (1024) and disk I/O dropped pretty dramatically. I then doubled each of those values (1024 recording, 2048 playback) and the disk I/O dropped even more (now around 25-30%). Prior to reading on the forums, I was prepared to buy a faster hard disk (the disk I'm currently recording on is a 1TB 7200rpm SATA drive, and yes, I have the scratch disk on C: and the track disk set to D:) to alleviate the problem. Now, with the improved I/O numbers, I'm thinking that isn't necessary. But I read that increasing the buffers can lead to other issues. What might some of those issues be? Did I raise the buffers correctly? Should the recording buffer be higher than the playback buffer, since I'm trying to play all zillion tracks while recording two new ones? Thanks to anyone who can lend insight to this issue and these questions....and thanks for reading.... Paul PS...this is my first project with this band, and the leader of the band is a well-know artist in my area. He used to run one of the more popular and successful studios in the area, and I'm trying to convince him he should continue to work with me (this is a hobby, we're both a million years old, neither of us is gonna make any money off this project), and once we're finished with the project, I'd like to maybe find some other clients to work with, so this project's success is very important to me. I'm working with people who have 30-40 years of professional musicianship under their belts. On a side note, they are all blown away with what we've recorded so far...several people have commented that they are surprised that something of this quality came from a "home studio". So far, Sonar has impressed a LOT of people, most of whom are Mac users using ProTools. Specs: Sonar X3e Producer on home-built dual Xeon quadcore server motherboard, 8GB RAM, Mackie 1640i audio interface.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2015/12/28 12:11:25
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It's quite normal to have 2 different buffer settings - low for recording and higher for mixing/playback. Another option when recording is to simply bypass all your Fx (hit 'e'), especially if you use any plugins which rely on lookahead or cpu intensive plugins like convolution reverbs
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Bajan Blue
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2015/12/28 12:34:21
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Also you can freeze tracks you are not going to adjust (except for say volume / panning) - you can quickly unfreeze if you need to work on the track again Nigel
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scook
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2015/12/28 12:42:52
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I believe the OP is asking about disk I/O buffer settings which at least for me do not get changed based on the project activity like the ASIO buffers and while freezing can reduce RAM and CPU load has the potential to increase disk I/O. In my case disk I/O buffers settings are set and forget. Don't have any experience with extreme settings and do not recall reading any recent experiments with large values.
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Wookiee
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2015/12/28 13:05:47
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Whilst this may sound a little silly some recent research I did revealed that XEON CPU's and Motherboards are not really suited to music production. Most music software is not optimised to take advantage of the XEON functions and they may in effect be missing some of the advantages of the i7, i5 and even i3 processors.
I would second Bristol_Jonesey's and Baja Blue's comments to reduce CPU load.
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Beepster
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2015/12/28 13:18:19
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You just need to keep the Read/Write i/o buffers high enough to avoid dropouts. I generally keep mine at 512 (for both) and can slog through what I need to. I'd say you are going to extremes unnecessarily. Try going back to 1024 if you are that concerned but 512 on a decent system with fast drives (7200rpm is recommended for HDD's... SSD's don't spin so it doesn't matter). There are lots of tricks though to avoid having to futz with i/o buffers. One is "Freezing" any tracks you don't need to adjust effects on (or for softsynths it removes them from the system resources). Once you are done tracking and want to adjust effects again/edit your MIDI tracks just "un-Freeze" the tracks. However maybe an "Export" and "Archive" procedure would work better for you. Essentially get a mix that your performer likes and that they can play/sing over, do a stereo mixdown of it and put it in a special "Mixdown" track. Label the take lane you put it in so you know who it's for (like "Vocal Backer" or "Guitar Backer"). You can make these exports for every artist in the band as you work. Then use the "Archive" button on all the other tracks which not only removes all the synths and effects from the system resources it takes all the audio clips out of system resources as well (which is what ACTUALLY hurts your disk drives far mre than effects and synths AFAIK... this is particularly true if you have a lot of comping/edits in each track). So now your project is playing back ONE track from ONE clip while you record your live parts instead of dozens. It will completely ease up on the system. Once the tracking is done just "un-Archive" the original tracks for mixing or creating new mixdowns for the band to track to. You could also use that method but instead of making a single stereo mixing do Bus "stem" exports that have all your bass on one export, all your drums on one export, all your rhythm guitars on one export, etc. Archive all other tracks like I said before leaving just those bus exports active. That way instead of dozens of tracks all with effects going you have maybe 5 or 6 track with NO effects... BUT you can still adjust volume levels for the performers on the fly. These techniques are almost like the old "Ping Ponging" we used to have to do with 4-8 track tape based multitrackers.... well almost but not quite. Hope that helps. Cheers.
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Karyn
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2015/12/28 20:05:25
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Spinning hard disks are good (fast) with small numbers of large files but struggle with large numbers of small files. While the disk spins fast and sequential data can be read fast, the speed of the head moving is very slow (by comparison) so every time the read head moves to a new area of the disk to read a different file (different guitar track) time is wasted. Increasing the I/o buffer size makes Sonar load more from each file on each read, so the disk spends more time reading data and less time moving the read head around. The issue is avoided by using SSD not HDD.
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TriangleRocks
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/11 19:17:56
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Thanks for everyone who responded. I've bumped both back down to 1024 and will stand with that setting for a bit. Again, not CPU bound, so turning off effects and plugins hasn't mattered (tried it, with buffers set to original values, and playing the tune failed at the exact same spot). Hadn't considered mixing all existing tracks to a "scratch" track while recording...might be worth investigating...this is probably the only time I'll ever have anywhere close to this many tracks in a tune (all previous tunes have peaked at around 50). And maybe freezing all the multi-take tracks will get the unused takes out of the equation. Again, thanks for the responses! Paul
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BobF
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/11 19:24:21
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Don't discount the power of degrag. With that much audio, I wouldn't be surprised if a defrag improved things for a bit.
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mettelus
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 01:20:05
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+1 for defrag, especially an "optimized defrag" which consolidates data. Files (and worse fragments) "all over the disk" can lead to very noticeable read times.
Unfortunately, disks tend to write in the first location available for speed purposes, so defragging HDDs is a good practice.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 04:04:05
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Sanderxpander
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 04:59:09
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Reading the OP, I don't understand all the suggestions about turning of FX or SSDs. The OP clearly stated he's using a 1TB 7200RPM regular HDD and his CPU is doing fine. This is very obviously a disk speed issue that is being effectively ameliorated by him upping the disk buffers. I have no experience with going as high as 150 tracks but I've also had track counts up to a hundred and upping the disk buffer a little can help. The obvious issue you get is that there is a larger delay before you hear anything play. There shouldn't be any significant other drawbacks if everything is doing what it should. If your disk is at least, say, half full, I would also recommend a defrag (leave it overnight as it can take ages on a large disk). Otherwise downmixing subgroups could be a solution. You could also archive your dry guitar tracks. Or even save a version with them and then delete them from the project, save again and continue working. You can always reimport them from an older version if you really need to reamp, but that way at least Sonar won't be reading 20 useless DI'd guitar tracks all the time.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 07:42:59
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I have run with zero issues at 512 for years and years. I DO switch ASIO Buffer Size from either 64 or 128 up to 1024 when mixing, and back down to 128 or 64 for tracking/recording. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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dcumpian
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 08:19:56
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If any of the tracks have lots of short takes, bounce the track to a new track and archive the original. Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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thedukewestern
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 12:19:29
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I would agree with some of the replies here. However the OP mentioned he does not have any synths in his project. I keep my playback buffer at 1024 and have had pretty stable high track count playbacks. When Im tracking its not unusual for me to bypass my fx vcia the icon. In my experience with higher track counts - most of it will be bussed down in some fashion... and its a good idea to use alot of foresight when compiling more tracks on top of that. What I mean is high track counts usually have some doubling, or quad tracking etc... Ill always use a buss processor instead of each track, and then mix down the buss and archive so the pc only has to play back 1 stereo mix instead of 12 individual tracks, especially if I know during the current tracking session that Ill be adding another high track count ensemble part... such as - "stomps" - or "Claps" - or " gang vocals" which can reach 8 individual tracks or so - Then... for the final mixdown ill open back up the archives. Tracking and Mixing are two different stages of the recording process, so its ok to treat them as such and get to know your hardware better, in my opinion all this is.
post edited by thedukewestern - 2016/01/12 12:34:06
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Beepster
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 13:22:04
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dcumpian If any of the tracks have lots of short takes, bounce the track to a new track and archive the original. Dan
Yes. Do this. Except these days you can use the "Flatten" function (which will produce a raw clip inside the original track based on the composite you've created). Then you can clone the track, deselect "Events" in the Clone Dialog (so the track retains all the properties such as FX, panning, levels, routing, etc of the original but does not copy all the takes/clips/lanes) and Ctrl + Shift + (left click) "drag" the flattened clip to the new, empty Clone. So now you've got the exact same track but without all the extra gack/clips/lanes/etc. Just one take/clip. Archive the original (the one with all the takes/clips) and then hide it in the Track Manager so it's completely out of your way. If you want to go back to it just show again in the Track Manager and unarchive it. It's all the separate clips that Sonar needs to keep track of and make available for the Fast Comp procedure (and just general muting/editing/whatever) that causes a lot of disk problems. Think about it... Sonar needs to read ALL that crap and have it at the ready so it seriously burdens the drive. Just like in my last post this method gets you one clip per track. Instead of tons. What I was talking about before in my earlier post is actually a more drastic approach. This "Flatten/Clone/Archive" method is what I usually do after tracking and getting my final edits done. It works very well for getting the project behaving a little better. What I would REALLY like is a Take Lane archiving process to avoid having to Clone and Copy crap. If we could "Archive" the unused takes individually or in a bulk process while leaving our comps alone (in their own lanes in the same track) it would save a ton of time. I actually made a Feature Request about this ages ago. Mayhaps I should find and bump it. Forgot about that one.... lol. Good luck.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 14:09:28
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I would totally use that. I end up never flattening comps because while I'm doing edits with the performer I'm on the clock and it's always possible I'll need to recomp a bit here and there. If I could flatten and preserve/archive my takes (similar to freezing/unfreezing a softsynth) I would definitely use that option. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding how this works right now. Fortunately my system doesn't seem to mind too much most of the time.
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BobF
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 14:20:10
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The originals stay there in a flattened comp. A new lane is created called Comp. You can delete that lane and redo the comp and flatten again.
post edited by BobF - 2016/01/12 14:32:56
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Beepster
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 14:38:07
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Sanderxpander I would totally use that. I end up never flattening comps because while I'm doing edits with the performer I'm on the clock and it's always possible I'll need to recomp a bit here and there. If I could flatten and preserve/archive my takes (similar to freezing/unfreezing a softsynth) I would definitely use that option. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding how this works right now. Fortunately my system doesn't seem to mind too much most of the time.
BobF The originals stay there in a flattened comp. A new lane is created called Comp. You can delete that lane and redo the comp and flatten again.
No need to delete it. I create multiple comps in the same track quite often. I record so many takes when I'm in the "zone" that I usually have a large enough pool to comp together doubled guitar tracks. You just need do some fiddle faddling with the Solo/Mute buttons on the lanes after the Flatten process (which is actually a little anoying but doable). And it doesn't even have to be for doubles. It can just be to have different performances/solos/etc that I can check out later after my brain/ears have settled from tracking. So I'll create Comp 1 and call it C1 in the Notes section of the lane. Then I'll go through and make notes of which sections I used for C1 (sometimes using timecodes or just names I give sections... sometimes I'll use Markers until it's all done and name the markers and use those marker names in my lane notes). Then I'll unsolo the C1 lane (and mute it) and create another comp which I call C2. If I'm creating a double I avoid using the sections I used before for C1 (because otherwise it will dump to mono in the mix and just be louder instead of a double... which is actually a cool effect sometimes in the middle of a solo but not a true double) but if I'm just making an alternate take it doesn't matter what sections get used. You can edit and flattened as many as you want to like this. I've actually gone so far as to create a bunch of comps of all the best material (to get rid of mistakes and stuff I didn't like) then unlocked the comped clips and created a NEW comp from those clips. Kind of like "sifting" the takes to get at the best of the best. It really depends on what I'm doing and how the recording is working out. I roll with a bunch of different weirdo workflows I've concocted based on what I think is gonna work best/save me time. Meh. Kind of "not as designed" usage but I'm a pigheaded bastard so I force things to work how I want.
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gswitz
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 15:09:58
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Virus scanner? Sample rate?
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 15:39:48
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I haven't tried this in a while but I thought I lost all my original comping choices when flattening? Maybe I just did it wrong. Never mind, I need to play with this more myself before asking silly questions in a thread about someone else's problem! Carry on!
post edited by Sanderxpander - 2016/01/12 15:52:50
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Beepster
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 15:54:19
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Sanderxpander I haven't tried this in a while but I thought I lost all my original comping choices when flattening? Maybe I just did it wrong. Never mind, I need to play with this more myself before asking silly questions in a thread about someone else's problem!
Carry on!
Nope. Just deslect the Solo button on the flattened comp's lane controls. All your previous clips/editing becoomes audible again. Beware though that the comped lane will play along with the original (which is an exact copy of the unflattened version) so you have to mute it or you'll get the two going at once... and once you start editing the original takes it'll get all wonky for obvious reasons. But yeah... semi sorta off topic.
post edited by Beepster - 2016/01/12 16:07:27
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orangesporanges
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Re: DIsk I/O Issues...some questions....and no mocking from the peanut gallery!
2016/01/12 21:30:25
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My vote is for Sander's original suggestion of doing a save as version that's stripped of all of the muted/archived tracks. Having said that, I would definitely defrag first. See if that fixes it. It definitely can't hurt and should be a regular part of your system maintenance if you are using HDD drives. Hint, name your save as something that REALLY tells you that it is not the original. I have done save as "song 1" "song 2" etc. that has left me scratching my head if I leave it go for any length of time
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