Drone7
I thought i made it clear that my preference for "physical media made available 24/7" is precluded by virtue of my previous explanation in relation to Cakewalk taking another route away from the more usual boxed version, which is why i blame Cakewalk for this problem if they intend not to oblige me or other potential Sonar users who might share the same feelings as i do.

 
They said physical media would be available for a nominal fee, so they apparently do plan on making this an option. But given how few people buy physical versions of SONAR, I expect it would be a lower priority than some other things (like the upcoming release for those who have already bought SONAR).
 

however, those explanations don't seem to ring-true for music store retailers in Australia...

 
But consider the logic. You want DVDs because of internet issues, so it makes more sense to sell physical media in that market. I don't know sales figures for SONAR broken down by country, but I would assume that sales in Australia are much lower than in North America, Europe, and Japan, where many people prefer downloads. So it's probably not surprising that a smaller company prioritizes to favor its biggest markets.
 
You definitely see less and less boxed software in the USA. Many audio interfaces have stopped including physical media altogether, because with driver updates being so common, they direct customers to the web to make sure they have they "latest and greatest." (Or maybe it's so users won't go on forums and say how much the interfaces suck )
 
As Mix Magazine said in their review of SONAR, "Although some of us aren’t quite there yet, the fact is physical DVD installers are a dying medium. Resellers don’t want to waste shelf space, and manufacturers don’t want to inflate costs with packaging and printing. Besides, you still have to download updates and patches, so what is the value proposition of having physical media?"
 
I think that's the prevailing view in SONAR's largest market. Sales of physical media have plummeted compared to online sales for all software companies. Cakewalk was actually one of the last companies to do direct download sales. The fact that many computers don't even come with DVD drives is also becoming problematic. USB sticks cost a lot more than DVDs...and so on.
 
It also seems perhaps silly that someone would buy a box with a download card, but some people want to support their local music stores. Often that store will give support to customers or offer other items along with the software. There are even stores with what are essentially "download kiosks" and they'll download onto media for you.
 
Please don't misinterpret this as an attempt to invalidate your needs, I get that. But the world is changing rapidly and companies have to make hard decisions about what has the best odds of keeping them in business if they can't do everything they'd like to do.

 

I will also state that IMO it is still too early for 'download only' of nearly anything, and especially of 'big-sized' download products like Sonar.

For better or for worse, I'm afraid it's inevitable. Optical media is nowhere near as popular as it once was (a shame, actually, Blu-Ray storage is outstanding). More sample libraries are sold these days as downloads than as physical media, and they can be huge. Now, if only all internet connections were as fast as South Korea we wouldn't be having this discussion...

Cost efficiency and reduced circuit complexity is the reason it (pulse density modulation) is being used in other industries and I believe why it will become the norm in the audio industry. DAW's will continue to convert pulse density modulation to pulse code modulation or some variation thereof at very high frequencies in order to process because of the cost required to restructure.

Anderton
They said physical media would be available for a nominal fee, so they apparently do plan on making this an option.
 

 
Good! Then i will be availing myself of that opportunity, only problem is 'when' will it be available? Also, 'how' do i obtain it, through a retailer or direct order from cakewalk?
 
 

Anderton
But consider the logic. You want DVDs because of internet issues, so it makes more sense to sell physical media in that market. I don't know sales figures for SONAR broken down by country, but I would assume that sales in Australia are much lower than in North America, Europe, and Japan, where many people prefer downloads. 
 

 
 
Well yes, 'I' have internet issues because of my internet plan, and i'm not utilizing the more powerful and regular cellular systems that more wealthy people pay to use, but FYI internet is certainly not an issue in Australia per-se. Apparently we have here the fastest most reliable internet in the world (well that's what they keep telling us on TV Ads and documentaries etc).
But as far as internet sales of Sonar being lower than other countries, then fair enough, I can see why Cakewalk needs to make business decisions and prioritize in their own interests, i may just have to suck it up and get with the program and make lemonade out of lemons.
 
 

Anderton
Besides, you still have to download updates and patches, so what is the value proposition of having physical media?"

Well because of my internet issue (as you've already acknowledged) the value proposition (as you call it) would be for me to merely download the foundational part of the program of about 150mb plus any new minor plugin or loop updates, and the 'larger majority' of Sonar could then be installed from the physical media on my shelf, capiche? That's the value proposition, thus circumventing my internet issue! The reason you even mentioned it that way and failed to realize this shows me how good of a situation you are in and that you've failed to put yourself in my shoes as to why i have a gripe about this in the first place. Unless you're telling me that Cakewalk only makes Sonar available as a complete download with no option to choose which parts to download.
 
 

Anderton
I think that's the prevailing view in SONAR's largest market. Sales of physical media have plummeted compared to online sales for all software companies. Cakewalk was actually one of the last companies to do direct download sales. But the world is changing rapidly and companies have to make hard decisions about what has the best odds of keeping them in business.
 

 
 
Seems the Australian market is years behind America, and therefore I wasn't aware of this, and why I still seem to be living in the 80's and 90's in my own head thinking everything is a physical product that one buys off the shelf in a retail store. I fully accept your explanation now that you put it like that.
 

Anderton
 
For better or for worse, I'm afraid it's inevitable. Optical media is nowhere near as popular as it once was.

 
That's why i'm glad Cakewalk is still prepared to make physical media available for a nominal fee, but i'm just hoping also that Cakewalk might be prepared to do this in the form of a USB stick rather than the old cumbersome and bulky DVD set
 
 
 
 

Anderton
There are quite a few people in the record industry who want to change the "standard" audio playback medium from 44.1/16 to 96/24. I remain unconvinced that the average consumer can hear the difference, or would care enough to want to replace their existing music collection, be it CD or MP3.
 

 
 
In listening to my 24bit songs vs 16bit, anyone would have to be deaf not to hear how superior the 24bit version is. This whole debate is similar to how many people claim they can't tell much difference between an AAC or MP3 and a 16bit WAV file, in reality we know they simply haven't got discerning ears or simply don't give a crap, so that's really what i would call a 'perception issue' not a 'reality issue', feel me?
 
What's more, it's comments from some Pro's in the industry like what you've just said THAT ARE IMPEDING THE WHOLE TRANSITION TO 24BIT, and personally i don't appreciate it (no offence intended). I'm quite surprised to hear you say that! I was playing CD's back in 1982 (ummm that would be 33 YEARS AGO); please people, enough is enough!! Use your ears, we want 24bit 96KHz BECAUSE IT MOST CERTAINLY IS SUPERIOR AND 'DOES' SOUND BETTER, more depth, more sheen, more body, more dynamic range, more gloss, more everything, there is a cumulative affect of doing the 'whole' mix in 24bit from start to finish (assuming use of all 24bit samples of course), or 'synergistic affect' if you like (conditions such that the total affect is greater than the sum of the individual affects) which most certainly holds weight for the argument of preferring 24bit in favour of 16bit for anyone who is 'quality orientated' or cares enough to give a damn. Yes, 16bit sounds fine, and has served us mightily for over 3 decades, BUT 24BIT SOUNDS BETTER, no doubt about it. I feel it in my gut when listening to 24bit, like a glow rising up in my soul, i don't get that with 16bit. This might be seen as 'subjective' but it's akin to the 'VIBE' the similar vibe during music production that makes the producer go from a static frozen mummy to an animated lightspeed being bobbing his head up-and-down and tapping his feet when the magic starts happening, feel me?
 

Anderton
Another contingent, probably a smaller one, feels DSD is the way to go.

 
I totally agree, another step-up from 24bit, even better again.

From what I understand, technically, SONAR doesn't run DSD at all, but imports it and runs it, at most, at 24 bits and 384 kHz.  Of course, this rate is what the big boys run at for editing DSD.  I wonder if capture at DSD and export as DSD has the same effect as tape does, where capture, even if later turned into to digital, continues to provide that special sound.
 
@

AT
From what I understand, technically, SONAR doesn't run DSD at all, but imports it and runs it, at most, at 24 bits and 384 kHz.  Of course, this rate is what the big boys run at for editing DSD.  I wonder if capture at DSD and export as DSD has the same effect as tape does, where capture, even if later turned into to digital, continues to provide that special sound.
 
@

Music exported to pulse density modulation from pulse code modulation data in a computer would embed pulse code modulation's quantization errors into the pulse density modulation data so I doubt it. Upsampling the pulse code modulation data before exporting would minimize this. File size would be the benefit but the sound would be on the level of upsampled pulse code modulation. Just my thoughts though not written in stone.
 
edit....
I believe I misread your question as you were asking about PDM to PCM to PDM. I was thinking about PCM to PDM. Decimation and interpolation come into play so who knows, I would think not but who knows what  the "special sound" is.

From what i understand about DSD , it is not necessarily the file type / sample rate itself that offers the sonic benefits, it is the performance of the converters and the way in which they operate (in the 1bit mode and the lack of filters, etc, im not an expert). That being said theoretically a file recorded in DSD and then converted to PCM should sound better than one converted using PCM. I have read peoples opinions though saying they couldnt hear any difference in this scenario, but in theory it should sound better. Assuming the conversion is better, it would be of benefit for people processing mixes, stems, or tracks through outboard gear to convert the pcm files to dsd, transfer to flash card, and playback that converted dsd file via the da3000, and capture using a 2nd da3000 (as far as im aware you cant playback and record dsd simultaneously on one unit). It would be nice to have synchronization features in sonar to play nice with the da-3000 or multiple da-3000's. One possible setup would be to have multiple dsd decks connected with a summing mixer, and another dsd deck to capture the summing mixer output. You could stem out your sonar stems in dsd and transfer them to the dsd decks, while having a dsd deck for capturing your hardware synths (thus avoiding ever converting hardware synths to pcm during mix) , or you could sequence the hardware and just blend it in the summing mixer during mixdown and save having to track it to its own unit prior to mixdown.  The most basic setup would be to just have 2 da3000s used for mixbus processing and possibly minimizing conversion loss from the round trip. Next step up would be to have say 3 da3000s for stems connected with summing mixer, and a 4th to capture. If the synch of the decks themselves, as well as the synch between grid/sequencer synch between sonar , and the dsd3000 aren't flawless then just basic 2track mix processing loopback chain would be all i would want to mess with.
 
While not an easy workflow, if minimizing conversion losses during the production process translates a benefit to the end result, it might be worth it to go through the hassle of tracking , transfering , converting the dsd files back and forth. I don't own a da3000 or any other dsd recorder so i can't say yet if you do get a sonic benefit from tracking dsd and converting, but if there is ,then people might want to track things like vocals, etc on the da3000 and import and convert to pcm. If sonar could come up with some form of communication and automatic file transfer from the da3000 it might be really cool. For example you hit record in sonar and are doing a vocal punch at 1:30 on the timeline, and sonar sends the record message to the da3000 where the audio gets recorded, and then upon hitting stop in sonar, it automatically pulls the dsd file from the da3000 over usb and imports and converts in to sonar placing it correctly on the timeline. Or better yet just make an dsd audio interface that works directly with sonar, or somehow add this function to the da3000. I know that with this interface you still wouldnt be able to work in dsd once inside sonar, but if the converters do in fact perform better , it might be worth it ( even with the degraded workflow ie: waiting for files to convert after every take)

When so many folks listen to their music with earbuds using MP3 what hope is there really for an audiophile standard to take hold.

sauceparticle
From what i understand about DSD , it is not necessarily the file type / sample rate itself that offers the sonic benefits, it is the performance of the converters and the way in which they operate (in the 1bit mode and the lack of filters, etc, im not an expert). That being said theoretically a file recorded in DSD and then converted to PCM should sound better than one converted using PCM. I have read peoples opinions though saying they couldnt hear any difference in this scenario, but in theory it should sound better.

Modern converters generally use sigma delta conversion at 1 bit or a few bits at a very high sampling rate.
 
I would suggest that if one doesn't understand how this works technically in some detail (and what the various trade offs and issues are), then one should not expect that they can know what "in theory" should sound "better".

drewfx1

sauceparticle
From what i understand about DSD , it is not necessarily the file type / sample rate itself that offers the sonic benefits, it is the performance of the converters and the way in which they operate (in the 1bit mode and the lack of filters, etc, im not an expert). That being said theoretically a file recorded in DSD and then converted to PCM should sound better than one converted using PCM. I have read peoples opinions though saying they couldnt hear any difference in this scenario, but in theory it should sound better.

Modern converters generally use sigma delta conversion at 1 bit or a few bits at a very high sampling rate.
 
I would suggest that if one doesn't understand how this works technically in some detail (and what the various trade offs and issues are), then one should not expect that they can know what "in theory" should sound "better".

You're right i can't say technically why it should sound "better". In a thread about merging horus somewhere i read a post where somebody had an explanation of why a converter opertating at dsd would outperform the same chip running pcm , but i dont recall where that was. I'm totally open to the idea that there is no benefit , i guess i'm just  hopeful there is a benefit. If i can find that thread again i will link it.