skitch_84
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Dealing with volume envelopes
Hey everyone! I had a quick question which I'm sure has been answered somewhere before, but I couldn't find another thread. Sorry if this is a repeat.
When I'm mixing, I'll often use volume envelopes on a number of tracks. The envelopes themselves are of course very useful, but man are they a pain when you're trying to turn the volume of all of your tracks down at once. If there were no volume envelopes I would simple hold down CTRL+Shift and select all of the tracks I wanted to alter the volume on. Then I would hold down CTRL as I adjusted the volume using one of the faders. This would cause all of them to move up or down by the same amount. The ones with the volume envelopes can't be adjusted this way and I find myself having to manually move the envelopes on each track separately, one by one. This itself is rather bothersome, but the worst problem is when I have a perfect mix (in terms of relative volume of tracks) and all I want to do is bring all of the tracks down by a certain amount to give myself some more room before I bounce them all down for mastering. What happens is, I'll have already moved all of the tracks' faders by some amount, and then realizing afterwards that I have tracks with envelopes that now have to be adjusted separately, but I can't remember exactly by how many dB I adjusted the faders. Suddenly my perfect volume balance has to be redone since you can't use "undo" for fader adjustments.
Anyway, if any of you have any techniques to help make this type of adjustment easier, I'd be really grateful. Thank you!
Chris Porter www.cportermusic.comListen to my original work on Soundcloud and YouTubeGet my original soundtracks on Bandcamp Sonar Platinum "2017.04", Windows 10 64-bit, ASUS Z170-A, i7 6700K (4.0GHz), 32GB DDR4 RAM, 250GB SSD 850 EVO (OS/Sonar/Plugins), 1TB SSD 850 EVO (Sample Libraries), 3TB WD Black HDD (projects/audio), Noctua NH-D14 Cooling Unit, PreSonus AudioBox USB Interface, M-AUDIO Oxygen49
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Anderton
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/09 01:16:52
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Check out offset mode in the documentation. This is designed specifically to do what you want; it's a feature I use all the time. The example given might be somewhat confusing, so here's mine: If you go into offset mode and pull down a track's fader by 3dB, the envelope won't change but that track's level will be pulled down by 3dB. Think of it as a "master volume control" for the automation. IF you go out of offset mode, the setting will be retained. You can offset up to a maximum of 6dB, and a minimum of -infinity dB. Also read all the way through to the end for the section on displaying envelopes as a percentage. This is somewhat esoteric but can be helpful.
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skitch_84
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/09 01:20:26
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Anderton
Check out offset mode in the documentation. This is designed specifically to do what you want; it's a feature I use all the time.
The example given might be somewhat confusing, so here's mine: If you go into offset mode and pull down a track's fader by 3dB, the envelope won't change but that track's level will be pulled down by 3dB. Think of it as a "master volume control" for the automation. IF you go out of offset mode, the setting will be retained.
You can offset up to a maximum of 6dB, and a minimum of -infinity dB.
Also read all the way through to the end for the section on displaying envelopes as a percentage. This is somewhat esoteric but can be helpful.
Thank you very much! You're always full of useful knowledge. I'll check that out :)
Chris Porter www.cportermusic.comListen to my original work on Soundcloud and YouTubeGet my original soundtracks on Bandcamp Sonar Platinum "2017.04", Windows 10 64-bit, ASUS Z170-A, i7 6700K (4.0GHz), 32GB DDR4 RAM, 250GB SSD 850 EVO (OS/Sonar/Plugins), 1TB SSD 850 EVO (Sample Libraries), 3TB WD Black HDD (projects/audio), Noctua NH-D14 Cooling Unit, PreSonus AudioBox USB Interface, M-AUDIO Oxygen49
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Anderton
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/09 01:28:46
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Oh, one more thing: You can Quick Group the faders in offset mode so that changing one changes the others equally. This is good if you want to bring down everything by a certain amount.
Quick Group is one of Sonar's truly great features.
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noynekker
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/09 01:52:13
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☄ Helpfulby finalymetten 2014/09/09 03:26:27
Another thing I've found useful to adjust Volume Envelopes rather than Offset mode, is to select the whole Volume Envelope, and drag the whole volume envelope level all at once. In Track View, with the automation lane turned ON, there is a "sweet spot" just to the left of the automation read button (R). When you click in the blank space there it turns red, and selects the whole envelope. Then, while holding the SHIFT key, the entire envelope can be dragged up or down in small increments. (Using Select tool, not Smart tool) Even better, if you turn on all your automation lanes, and select multiple tracks using that "sweet spot" (by holding down Control key) . . . multiple Automation Volume Envelopes can be adjusted. I use this quite often, when I need to tweak the levels of tracks after volume envelopes are already in place.
post edited by noynekker - 2014/09/09 02:42:55
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Anderton
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/09 02:29:54
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☄ Helpfulby finalymetten 2014/09/09 03:26:43
And while we're on the subject...if you position the smart tool just below the top of the automation lane, dragging up and down changes the envelope level. And if you follow noynekkar's tip about control-clicking the sweet spot (although I do think he means turn blue, not red...yes?), you can adjust multiple automation curves simultaneously.
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noynekker
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/09 02:44:22
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Anderton
And while we're on the subject...if you position the smart tool just below the top of the automation lane, dragging up and down changes the envelope level. And if you follow noynekkar's tip about control-clicking the sweet spot (although I do think he means turn blue, not red...yes?), you can adjust multiple automation curves simultaneously.
Turns red for me, since I've never been a fan of the Cakewalk Blue / Grey colour scheme. . . . but hey, didn't know about the Smart Tool positioned above the automation lane, that's even better, faster, thanks for that !
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Karyn
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/09 07:12:55
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Or you could use busses... Do all the automation on the individual tracks and send each track (or group of related tracks, guitars, keys, drums, etc) to busses where the overall level is set.
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dcumpian
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/09 08:25:41
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Karyn
Or you could use busses... Do all the automation on the individual tracks and send each track (or group of related tracks, guitars, keys, drums, etc) to busses where the overall level is set.
Absolutely! Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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skitch_84
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/09 20:24:03
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Karyn
Or you could use busses... Do all the automation on the individual tracks and send each track (or group of related tracks, guitars, keys, drums, etc) to busses where the overall level is set.
You know, after posting this I was thinking about that. I've heard people talk about a "Pre-Master Bus". I was never really sure what that would be good for. But actually, I could route all of my tracks or groups of tracks to individual busses as I always do. But instead of having all of those busses go to the master bus, I could have them all go to a pre-master bus and then have that go to the master bus. That way I can easily adjust the overall volume of the tracks without affecting their relative volume to each other. Are there any other good reasons to have a pre-master bus? To people who use one, what kinds of things go on on it?
Chris Porter www.cportermusic.comListen to my original work on Soundcloud and YouTubeGet my original soundtracks on Bandcamp Sonar Platinum "2017.04", Windows 10 64-bit, ASUS Z170-A, i7 6700K (4.0GHz), 32GB DDR4 RAM, 250GB SSD 850 EVO (OS/Sonar/Plugins), 1TB SSD 850 EVO (Sample Libraries), 3TB WD Black HDD (projects/audio), Noctua NH-D14 Cooling Unit, PreSonus AudioBox USB Interface, M-AUDIO Oxygen49
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skitch_84
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/09 20:26:50
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Of course, Offset Mode is going to be a lifesaver as well. I'm going to start using it on my projects from now on. Thanks for all the advice!
Chris Porter www.cportermusic.comListen to my original work on Soundcloud and YouTubeGet my original soundtracks on Bandcamp Sonar Platinum "2017.04", Windows 10 64-bit, ASUS Z170-A, i7 6700K (4.0GHz), 32GB DDR4 RAM, 250GB SSD 850 EVO (OS/Sonar/Plugins), 1TB SSD 850 EVO (Sample Libraries), 3TB WD Black HDD (projects/audio), Noctua NH-D14 Cooling Unit, PreSonus AudioBox USB Interface, M-AUDIO Oxygen49
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dcumpian
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/10 08:27:19
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Use busses to mix instruments that belong together. There are no limits to the number of busses you can use, so why limit yourself in how you use them? As you mix instruments together, you can output busses to new busses (rather than master) to have more control over entire sections of a song. For example:
15 drum tracks -> Cymbal bus, Kick + Snare bus, Toms bus -> Drum bus -> Master
This way I can treat and/or raise/lower each of the middle three busses separately, then still adjust overall drum level before it hits the master bus. You can even go further and have the bass + drum bus output to another bus and you now have control of the rhythm section. And so on...
Regards,
Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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skitch_84
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/12 00:20:19
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So, a quick update on this. I'm doing an arrangement of a video game music piece for an upcoming fan-made "arranged" album. I had done a rough mix on the finished arrangement a month ago or so and just went back into the project to give it a proper mix. All of the tracks for the album will be professionally mastered so I didn't need to worry about overall volume.
The mix sounded pretty thin to me in some parts, despite being happy with the arrangement. While I had Cake's tape saturation plugin used on a couple of my buses, I decided to throw it on every single instrument and just give each a small touch of tape saturation. Man! That really works wonders to fill out a piece and glue all the disparate instruments together. But, it of course raised the overall volume of the piece and was causing clipping at the loudest points. I should mention that I did adjust a few other elements of the mix (reverb, panning, EQ), but that tape saturation really did the trick in this particular case.
I created a new bus, called it 'premaster', routed all of the buses to it and turned that baby down so that the finished track peaked at around -6.0dB (since it'll be mastered later) and I was done. I can't believe I had never used at premaster bus before. Thanks again for all the suggestions, everyone.
Chris Porter www.cportermusic.comListen to my original work on Soundcloud and YouTubeGet my original soundtracks on Bandcamp Sonar Platinum "2017.04", Windows 10 64-bit, ASUS Z170-A, i7 6700K (4.0GHz), 32GB DDR4 RAM, 250GB SSD 850 EVO (OS/Sonar/Plugins), 1TB SSD 850 EVO (Sample Libraries), 3TB WD Black HDD (projects/audio), Noctua NH-D14 Cooling Unit, PreSonus AudioBox USB Interface, M-AUDIO Oxygen49
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/12 02:13:20
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I don't understand why you need a "premaster" bus for this. You could just as easily lower the master bus by 6dB (or however much you need) and export that.
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skitch_84
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/12 02:20:15
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Sanderxpander
I don't understand why you need a "premaster" bus for this. You could just as easily lower the master bus by 6dB (or however much you need) and export that.
Isn't it considered good practice to keep the master bus at 0dB? However, in this particular instance, yes I could have just lowered the fader of the master bus by 6dB since I wasn't going to be doing my own mastering, and just exported that audio to be sent to be mastered. But, in a normal situation, I would be doing my own mastering. In those cases, I would want to be able to lower the overall volume of all the tracks to prevent that clipping I was getting when the volume hit its peaks. I could do that by using the premaster. Then, I would bounce the new, non-clipping mix to a new track. I would then do my mastering on this track, applying my limiter, etc. with the master bus still sitting at 0dB where it should be.
post edited by skitch_84 - 2014/09/12 02:28:58
Chris Porter www.cportermusic.comListen to my original work on Soundcloud and YouTubeGet my original soundtracks on Bandcamp Sonar Platinum "2017.04", Windows 10 64-bit, ASUS Z170-A, i7 6700K (4.0GHz), 32GB DDR4 RAM, 250GB SSD 850 EVO (OS/Sonar/Plugins), 1TB SSD 850 EVO (Sample Libraries), 3TB WD Black HDD (projects/audio), Noctua NH-D14 Cooling Unit, PreSonus AudioBox USB Interface, M-AUDIO Oxygen49
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ULTRABRA
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/12 02:38:15
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I thought aslo that it is good practice to keep Master fader always at 0db. But, if you need to pull down (or raise) the overall volume of a song (all tracks), would it make any difference to use a Pre-Master to do it (and keep Master at 0), or use the Master fader to do it? Following on the comment about the saturation - I put a small amount of saturation on the Master Bus (just as a glueing effect) - if there are FX on the Master Bus, would this be relevant in choosing if to adjust up/down the overall volumne using Pre-Master or Master?
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skitch_84
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/12 03:01:47
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ULTRABRA
I thought aslo that it is good practice to keep Master fader always at 0db. But, if you need to pull down (or raise) the overall volume of a song (all tracks), would it make any difference to use a Pre-Master to do it (and keep Master at 0), or use the Master fader to do it? Following on the comment about the saturation - I put a small amount of saturation on the Master Bus (just as a glueing effect) - if there are FX on the Master Bus, would this be relevant in choosing if to adjust up/down the overall volumne using Pre-Master or Master?
Here's how I've been looking at it. Let's say you have all of your audio tracks separate (not all bounced down to one master audio track yet). You've already done all of your EQing, reverb, etc. The only problem is that you're getting some slight clipping. You decide to lower the master bus by the amount that you're clipping. Then with the master bus lowered, you select all of the audio tracks and bounce them to a new audio track that you plan on mastering. You then have to raise the volume of the master track back up to 0dB. Now, let's say you notice something in the mix that you want to change. You mute the master audio track that you bounced and move back to work on the separate audio tracks again. Well, you've moved the master fader back to 0dB so you'll have to lower it again in order to not get clipping. All of that was just a really wordy way of saying that it's easier just to have a premaster bus that you can leave alone after you've adjusted it. If you bounce between mastering and mixing like I do (I always find little things in the mix that I want to change a day or two later), then it's easier just to have all of the settings as they were before you bounced all of your audio tracks down.
Chris Porter www.cportermusic.comListen to my original work on Soundcloud and YouTubeGet my original soundtracks on Bandcamp Sonar Platinum "2017.04", Windows 10 64-bit, ASUS Z170-A, i7 6700K (4.0GHz), 32GB DDR4 RAM, 250GB SSD 850 EVO (OS/Sonar/Plugins), 1TB SSD 850 EVO (Sample Libraries), 3TB WD Black HDD (projects/audio), Noctua NH-D14 Cooling Unit, PreSonus AudioBox USB Interface, M-AUDIO Oxygen49
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Karyn
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Re: Dealing with volume envelopes
2014/09/12 09:09:29
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skitch_84
Sanderxpander
I don't understand why you need a "premaster" bus for this. You could just as easily lower the master bus by 6dB (or however much you need) and export that.
Isn't it considered good practice to keep the master bus at 0dB?
However, in this particular instance, yes I could have just lowered the fader of the master bus by 6dB since I wasn't going to be doing my own mastering, and just exported that audio to be sent to be mastered.
But, in a normal situation, I would be doing my own mastering. In those cases, I would want to be able to lower the overall volume of all the tracks to prevent that clipping I was getting when the volume hit its peaks. I could do that by using the premaster. Then, I would bounce the new, non-clipping mix to a new track. I would then do my mastering on this track, applying my limiter, etc. with the master bus still sitting at 0dB where it should be.
The fader on the Master only sets the final output level to disc/tape/whatever. If you're hitting the Master with a signal that's to hot you can't simply turn down the Master fader as any effect you may have on the Master bus will still be hit by the hot signal. Even if you're not doing the mastering yourself you can still have effects on the Master bus. Your job as engineer/mixer/producer is to produce the sound that you want, If that requires eq or compression or reverb on the Master then so be it. The job of a Mastering engineer is to take the sound you've created and make it work for whatever distribution medium you may require, so whether you listen to it on CD or FM radio or 64bit MP3 it should always sound the way you heard it when you mixed it. If you're expecting a mastering engineer to improve the overall sound and add "that little bit of magic"... well that's stuff you should have done when you mixed it. A pre-master bus gives a point of control at the front end of the Master. Think of it as an enhanced gain control on the Master input. It's easier to control/adjust than the standard gain control, you get level meters so you can see exactly how hard the Master is being hit. If you have any compression on the Master you get instant before/after metering just by placing the pre-master bus next to the Master. There are folk that refuse to put any effects at all on the Master bus, in which case a pre-master appears to be a waste of screen space. However, any processes intended to affect the entire mix (say, a global reverb or a filter sweep effect, or even just a touch of EQ) would have to go there or a pre-master. You can chain as many busses as you like, what we call the "Master" is simply the point at which you've stopped processing the sound and have the finished article.
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