Helpful ReplyDesperately need two lanes of markers

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RexRed
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2016/08/04 00:17:37 (permalink)
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Desperately need two lanes of markers

I use the markers to put lyrics in
 
But I also use them for chords.
 
But I cannot use them for both or they overlap and become unreadable. If I use the markers for lyrics each marker is a small phrase.
 
Then when I need them for chords I have to erase them all and put markers in for chords.
 
If I need the words again I have to erase the chord markers and put the lyric markers in again.
 
If I could just add a second marker/ruler lane above it my problems would be solved.
 
Please work on this, thanks!
 
Lyric view is just not the same thing, the ruler gives me direct correspondence to various tracks. Lyric and chord markers let me know exactly where I am in the song and what exact chords are playing.
 
Please help vote this idea up peeps, two or more marker lanes would be handy for marking song changes and finding your place. Think about it, wouldn't it be nice to have your chords and lyrics always readily visible in your songs too?
 
I am faced with this dilemma nearly every time I make a song.
 
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post edited by RexRed - 2016/08/05 02:00:05
#1
RexRed
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/04 15:20:41 (permalink)
+1 (1)
I guess no one wants two marker lanes, well people it is your cakewalk too and if you don't care about usability then suffer without it like I do.
 
This is the second time I have asked for 2 marker lanes. I am now stalling on a project for that reason alone. I have to go in one by one and add these markers. It is so time consuming I am wondering about other daws. 
 
It would be nice to not have to go searching for a piece of paper with the chords or lyrics associated with each project they are in my project where they belong. This is such a simple thing, lyrics and chords... really the most rudimentary part of making music. And cakewalk does not address either other than a lyrics view that is nearly impossible to work with.
 
If you can't give us two marker lanes then give us text tracks.
post edited by RexRed - 2016/08/04 15:48:48
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TheMaartian
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/04 17:05:39 (permalink)
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I don't want to be a knucklehead and suggest something you've tried, so this is more of a "help me understand" question. I'm new to this issue, so it's as much about getting myself smarter. Thanks for understanding.
 
My question is around entering lyrics using the Staff view. It seems like if you have, or can create, a MIDI melody track to attach the lyrics to, it would scroll with the play head during playback. It also seems possible to notate chords the same way.
 
Or, am I suffering from the following?
 


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RexRed
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/04 22:33:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby TheMaartian 2016/08/05 11:54:21
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Thanks TheMaartian for your post.
 
Lyric view is VERY buggy, crashes if you try and edit it, it is basically unusable. Forget one hyphen and try and add it after the fact and you have to start all over again. Having to associate every syllable with a midi event is so difficult and old school.   
 
Using lyrics view is worse than deleting my lyrics markers and replacing them with chord markers back and forth.
 
It can be done but consider priorities, lyrics and chords should be a no brainier with music. 
 
I love the other features but text integration is a ground level necessity, really.
 
It takes me hours to even attempt to put lyrics into lyric view and usually I give up at my own embarrassment of my clients who put up a stink as to the time it consumes.
 
I might also mention another thing.
 
I have one client who has a terrible sense of rhythm, their voice quality is nice and they sing the lines right except they are always late in delivering them. I try to get them to think ahead as all good musicians do but this is of no avail usually. (No it is not high latency it is bad rhythm.)
 
One weird oddity is if they can see the markers they sing them in time along with the creation of their wave file during recording.
 
Something about seeing the project files along with the markers bypasses their natural rhythm delay. They don't mind me putting in the markers but working in lyric view they and I find too time consuming and try and edit a lyric change and the whole hierarchy crumbles. I might ask have you programmers even tried to use lyric view?
 
I used to work with FSK and SMPTE time code long ago. This lyric problem reminds me of that. Because I only had 8 tracks on my reel to reel, the drum tracks had to be done prior to recording any other tracks and recorded onto tape first.
 
That meant knowing where every nuance of cymbal crash and drum rolls occurred beforehand, they had to be programmed in before any of the other instrument tracks could be recorded. This kind of thing taxes even the most musically minded. It would take me days to map out the song on paper way back in cakewalk for DOS. Cakewalk fixed that problem, yay! Now this problem needs addressing to bring the text integration into Sonar music up to the current state of the art.
 
 
post edited by RexRed - 2016/08/05 02:03:46
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RexRed
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/04 22:45:32 (permalink)
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BTW anyone still got these? :) I had cakewalk for DOS too. This is my original disk.

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RexRed
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/05 01:32:29 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Why a DAW Might Not Be the Best Song Writing Tool
https://tropicaltheartist.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/why-a-daw-might-not-be-the-best-song-writing-tool/
 
This person has hit on the problem I am outlining here in this thread.
 
 
Excerpt
"Very few DAWs (if any) help you write lyrics to chord sequences, or make lyrics fit into the rhythm of your track.  At best, you might use a DAW to loop a section of music, while you try to write the lyrics, but it’s not too good at supporting this lyric to music fitting process.  Whether you start with chords first, or melody first, or lyrics first, fitting them together is usually not best done inside a DAW."
 
Comment:
Why are DAW's terrible for writing lyrics? Because they have terrible text interfaces into the midi stream.
 
The problem is adding chords and lyrics inside a DAW because the DAWs have not been modified to accommodate lyrics AND chord lanes. The concept is quite simple...
 
There needs to be at least two text lanes. Both are equally as vital.
 
And how many songs have lyrics and chords? Nearly all of them. How many DAWS accommodate text and chord lanes in the track view? Nearly none of them.
 
Try and get a guitar player to record along to your song by reading the chords strewn out on a piece of paper, it is terrible.
 
I need text tracks yesterday...
 
Why shouldn't a DAW aid the creative song making process from start to finish?
One that does will have a superior feature that none other has and most song writing artists need.
 
I would like to know that this is going to be addressed soon.
 
Excerpt"
"You see, a DAW is designed from the point of view of you already knowing what you want to record."
 
Comment:
Really? 
post edited by RexRed - 2016/08/05 01:55:34
#6
AntManB
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/05 10:23:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RexRed 2016/08/14 09:48:59
+1 (1)
I use markers for lyrics too and agree that it might be useful to have some way of having different groups of markers that you can turn on and off.  I'm not sure that two marker lanes is the best way to implement it though.
 
As a workaround, some people have talked about using a dummy midi track to add annotations using clip names.  I haven't tried this myself but it sounds reasonably straightforward and could work well for lyrics if you kept that track next to the relevant vocal track.
 
AMB
 
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/05 15:08:19 (permalink)
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Thanks AntManB! I had that ideal lurking in my mind I considered using audio clips but my mind had not gotten far enough into the idea to consider midi clips. I will try that for this song and see how it works out. 
 
I would really never dream of writing lyrics in Cakewalk, I use Microsoft Word because the spellcheck just makes things easier. (and rhymer.com always got that open)
 
For me and my way of creating a song in a DAW is like flight in getting the song off the ground.
 
I write the lyrics and sometimes, not always, the chords. Sometimes the chords are straight forward and sometimes they are quite a bit more complex and convoluted.
 
Each song is very different but, I first find a basic drum track that fits the song style. Either a drum loop or these days more often, Addictive Drums 2.
 
I usually use a basic beat rather than the metronome because I figure I will need drums anyway and it sounds more realistic. Though sometimes I will leave the metronome on anyway while recording to tell where beat one is accentuated in each measure.
 
Then I try and play the song on my guitar and sing it into one audio track. I allow the vocals and guitar together in this track because it will only be a reference track and not be in the final song. Sometimes I will use two tracks but the guitar will still bleed into the vocal mic. 
 
This is where I am usually looking over to a lyrics page in Word that I have resized both the cakewalk window and the Word window so they can fit side by side. Mind you, this takes my eyes off cakewalk for the most part. This is getting the song off the ground. Once I have the reference track recorded I can then begin nailing down the song structure. This is where markers come in. Recording this reference track saves me hours of work. Otherwise I would have to map out the song on paper and that really is very tedious.
 
This way my reference track is easily mapped out to cakewalk's predetermined tempo. I play an estimation of how long the instrumental sections will be but I can split my reference track and move the section later to add or subtract a measure or two. 
 
As for the basic chord track I find a piano or guitar to be a good reference rather than a pad.
 
A piano has a nice attack where a pad is a bit to murky for some to sing along to.
 
This process is where the markers help to really map out the song and make it easy to add vocals and other instrument tracks along side the reference track. At that point with the markers the reference track can even be muted so as not to distract.
 
Not all songs I can do like this, sometimes I have to use a piano rather than an acoustic guitar or even a loop for my reference track and sometime I do not know at all how the vocal melody goes.
 
In this case I need to be able to sing several takes and experiment with the vocal melody and timing.
 
Once vocal comping is done then I can do my vocal markers. By this time my markers are usually chords.
 
Each song is different and the chords and lyric timing often evolve differently depending on the song difficulty and style.
 
Having two wheels under me (vocal markers and chord markers) help steady and balance the song till it can get off the ground.
 
Whether you think of it as getting off the ground or landing the song, the principle of needing two text lanes for chords and lyrics is still the same. Once these two text tracks have been fully satisfied then song can now be glued into place with other instrumentation and vocal tracks.
 
This probably belongs in a techniques thread but oh well it also cements my case for the need for easy to insert, on the fly, lyric and chord text events. 
 
I try and get the song mapped out fully before adding too many instrument and melodyne tracks. Sliding whole sections of a song to insert a measure can be tricky after the fact but it can be done with a bit of wrangling and cakewalk's great editing tools.
 
(Psst, the smart tool would be great for adding and editing text tracks.)
 
:)
post edited by RexRed - 2016/08/05 15:29:44
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TheMaartian
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/05 15:38:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RexRed 2016/08/14 09:49:08
+1 (1)
RexRed
... 
I would really never dream of writing lyrics in Cakewalk, I use Microsoft Word because the spellcheck just makes things easier. (and rhymer.com always got that open)
...

FWIW, I use Rhyme Genie ($25) and it's companion editor, song manager and pitch journal, TuneSmith, from Idolumic. Just love the combo.
 
http://www.rhymegenie.com/
 
Check out the videos. 

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RexRed
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/05 20:29:37 (permalink)
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Hey TheMaartian!
 
I was unaware of that program TuneSmith, EXCELLENT TIP!
 
I am going to buy it along with the rhymer plugin. It does more than I need but, that is a sign of a great program!
 
Who knows I may evolve into the deeper features of the program with time.
 
This is also a great program for Cakewalk Platinum to offer import of chords and lyrics into their ermmm... ahem, "newly designed text tracks"! 
 
REALLY excited about purchasing it and it works with Windows 10 too!!!
 
TOTALLY AWESOME!
THANKS!
 
 
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/06 11:36:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RexRed 2016/08/14 09:49:19
+1 (1)
RexRed
Hey TheMaartian!
 
I was unaware of that program TuneSmith, EXCELLENT TIP!
 
I am going to buy it along with the rhymer plugin. It does more than I need but, that is a sign of a great program!
 
Who knows I may evolve into the deeper features of the program with time.
 
This is also a great program for Cakewalk Platinum to offer import of chords and lyrics into their ermmm... ahem, "newly designed text tracks"! 
 
REALLY excited about purchasing it and it works with Windows 10 too!!!
 
TOTALLY AWESOME!
THANKS!

You're welcome.
 
Michael, the developer at Idolumic (from 'idolum' = phantom; he's left me guessing the rest! ) is a terrific guy. He comp'd me 4 licenses for a bit of help when Apple deprecated Quicktime for Windows, and is helping me work with the Director of the School of Music at Northern Arizona University to find financially strapped students who could benefit. Note that TuneSmith runs great, but for the time being at least, you can't record directly into it. I don't miss that feature. I use Field Recorder Pro for Android on my phone and tablet.
 
Also note that TuneSmith is FREE with a $25 license of Rhyme Genie. You don't need to pay for both. I think any songwriter would be hard-pressed to get more for $25.
 
Great idea on the import into SONAR. Now THAT'd be something!
 
Have fun! Write keepers!
 
EDIT: Usage tip: I use Windows snap-to feature with the pair. I snap Rhyme Genie to the left and TuneSmith to the right. The default will give each app half the screen. You can place the cursor between the two windows, you can resize both at the same time. I run with TuneSmith at about 60% of the screen width. That still leaves Rhyme Genie plenty of screen real estate to show 4 columns (1-4 syllables) of suggestions.

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azslow3
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/06 15:26:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RexRed 2016/08/14 09:49:23
+1 (1)
I am not going to say that lyrics and chords do not need some love, but I prefer this view over "Markers":

 
Also lyrics has standard MIDI definition, different from markers. So lyrics as such is simpler import to/from Sonar. Including usual and Karaoke MIDI files.
 
I agree that entering lyrics in the Lyrics view is a nightmare, but doing that in the Staff view, when you have a melody, is not so bad. Otherwise you can use any other arranger program with Lyrics and then import result MIDI.

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RexRed
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/07 01:10:34 (permalink)
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Azslow3 thanks for sharing, that figure looks absolutely beautiful but the problem is (hehe) is I know the work that goes into making that happen.
 
I rarely put the melody into cakewalk, my audio is usually the melody in the form of a vocal audio track and audio to midi is a great feature but never seems to work well for me.
 
I never use staff view because it requires too much math (no offence to those purists who do use staff view, i respect that ability). I am strictly a piano roll 12 tone guy.
 
So I would be happy with either two marker lanes or text tracks. Text tracks would be preferable because the marker text is often too small but okay and I think there is already too much going on in the ruler area as is. I am constantly clicking in the ruler and it does things to my work space that i did not even know it did nor do i know how to make it do the same things again, like select all and zoom features that are sometimes a nuisance (to me that is). 
 
But two rulers w/markers would solve my problem fine and dandy. (no more complaints)
 
Text tracks where text events could be inserted as easily as markers would be FANTASTIC! If the text tracks could be undocked and function like lyric view, that would be impressive! Did I say impressive? I meant REALLY impressive!!!! :)
 
post edited by RexRed - 2016/08/07 07:50:40
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VariousArtist
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/07 14:09:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RexRed 2016/08/14 09:49:30
+1 (1)
+11 for this feature request

I've been wanting multi-purpose tracks that go beyond audio/midi, such that they could support multiple marker tracks, etc.

Here's my original post
http://forum.cakewalk.com/m/tm.aspx?m=3224655
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VariousArtist
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/08/08 11:05:48 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RexRed 2016/08/14 09:49:36
+2 (2)
Just copying my aforementioned post here:

It would be cool if we could have new types of tracks for these purposes:

Existing track types:
- audio
- MIDI

Suggested new track types:
- marker/arranger (song sections)**
- To Do list
- lyrics
- chords
- BPM ruler
- SMPTE ruler
- blank (for spacing large projects)
Etc

**Selecting an arrangement section would automatically select the entire set of tracks within that time-selection. And moving that arrangement/marker clip would automatically move everything else too. Simples!

Regardless, you would be able to add in multiple track types of the new kind. So I could have multiple marker/arranger tracks (one could be used to describe low level song sections, such as verse, chorus, etc., and another could be high-level sections, such as part 1, part 2, etc.). I could also add in multiple BPM/SMPTE ruler tracks so that these line up against any audio/midi track for ease of reading etc. (this would be especially useful if a I had a movie sound track that required noises at a particular time, whereas another audio track was lined up against an BPM ruler for musical purposes). Etc


For now, here's my approach to labeling song sections, by repurposing a MIDI track and using its clips to indicate those songs sections (see image below).

http://variousartist.com/..._InformationTracks.jpg

Basically I create some dummy information on a new MIDI track, and then I extend out the MIDI Clip to represent a section of a song. I can then use that clip to help select a section of the song for rearrangement purposes or just simply to identify the section more clearly.

True, I could use markers for this purpose, but I find they get very cluttered with all the notes I want to make. However, by using a MIDI track for this information I can create as many tracks and spread out the marker type information (e.g. song sections, to do reminders, etc.)
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RexRed
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/09/30 20:36:59 (permalink)
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I am still waiting for text tracks.... Band in a box has chord tracks...
 
I hope to see that this features is "in the oven" soon or I will be looking for a new sequencer for my early song creation needs. Cakewalk is great for editing and every update editing gets much better, once the tracks are solidified, but it is terrible for brainstorming initial ideas.
 
Seriously cakewalk is nearly unusable without text tracks for early song formation... 
 
I don't need load balancing though it is nice, I don't generally need multiple select and fancy new color schemes... I need chord tracks and text tracks. Practicality and usability over aesthetics. Color schemes I rarely ever even use, it is rather an after thought than a necessity.
 
Chords and text are rudimentary tracks and I hope your programmers get this on the FAST TRACK, it is interrupting my workflow terribly now. 
 
I seriously am thinking of changing sequencers and I just bought lifetime updates. Been on this Cakewalk train since DOS and without text tracks this is seriously no "cakewalk" anymore.
 

 
I need text tracks yesterday... I said this last month. Please indicate that this is in the works. Several years ago I wrote about this on these very forums and so have several others voiced this vital feature need. I have nearly 200 songs I have created in cakewalk and I am tired of jumping the same hoops time and again because there is a single marker lane and/or no text tracks. These text tracks don't need to be that sophisticated the markers certainly aren't. 
 
I end up with an entire new song virtually in my head because there are not multiple text and chord tracks to help nail down the song ideas and early structure formation.
 
Please halt some of the feature plans and address this need first.
post edited by RexRed - 2016/09/30 21:16:01
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RexRed
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/10/02 17:32:08 (permalink)
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Okay I think it was mentioned a while back in this thread and I did not give it enough consideration.
 
I have found a workaround for text tracks. It is great that Cakewalks has this feature and it seems no longer a feature that is "missing". Cakewalk has had text tracks all along.
 
I was thinking I would have to use audio clips and name each one with chords or lyrics. I thought that would have been overkill.
 
Instead I tried it with midi clips I dragged the clip pane to the size I wanted and I only have one midi event in the midi clip. I can go to the clip properties panel and input text. I can copy and paste the clip and successively rename and position the clips. It is quite easy once I have an initial midi event clip inserted.
 
The text is readable for my purposes and I simply mute the midi track.
 
Problem solved. I am sorry I did not investigate this further and sooner. Copying and renaming midi clips couldn't actually be any easier.  I am so glad I have this problems solved. 
 
Hope this is a help to others struggling with this same dilemma. :)
 
I am very happy with Cakewalk!
 
And BTW the the new load balancing feature is done well. I don't have quite as large a spike in the first processor of the quad cores as I did before. Awesome program!
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Afrodrum
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/10/23 15:22:16 (permalink)
+1 (1)
+1 .   I use the markers to watch chord changes. Second or third lane would let me add so much more info.
post edited by Afrodrum - 2016/10/23 15:46:22

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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/10/25 21:16:58 (permalink)
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I use multiple monitors and so I've been a long-time proponent that any/all views should allow multiple windows,  For instance, two Track Views open simultaneously could also provide different zooms and could provide multiple time lines with multiple markers.
 
The solution might lie in the information listed in the Marker View.  How hard would it be to add a column to that data that allows each marker to be classified as "Chords," "Lyrics," "Chorus," or you name it.  With that data, it would be pretty straightforward to turn markers on or off.  Hey, kick it up another notch by associating colors with each marker type!
 
I enjoyed learning about your songwriting workflow suggestions, but I think multiple marker types create even more opportunities than the ones you're looking for.

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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/11/10 16:38:19 (permalink)
0
I like your idea! I also have been needing this.
But shouldn't be limited to two...it should be "limitless" and you select from a dropdown which you want to view/show. Dropdown from saved marker-lists.

SONAR Professional 2017.06 (Win 10 64-bit)
Focusrite Scarlett 6i6
Yamaha HS7
#20
Darangen
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Re: Desperately need two lanes of markers 2016/11/13 12:23:58 (permalink)
0
I do like the idea of having more than one group of markers. Color coding markers is something I would like to see, verses orange, chorus green, etc.
#21
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