Difference between Volume and Gain and how to use them

I read this on a site and was wondering if anyone could add more to the difference between volume and gain. So far what I understand is that If I set the volume fader of a track to 6, (the max in sonar) and the same with track two and track one is still louder than track two, I should use the gain faders to math their volume signals?
 
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Gain is the amount of "volume" you have available. The gain is there so that you can adjust it in such a way that the volume is at the level you want when it's set on max. Just so that you don't have to worry about where you had your volume set to before. So you can change the volume, and pump it back to max, knowing that's the volume you want. I hope I'm not confusing? Hrm I don't think that made much sense. OK time for math.

Let's represent loudness by a range from 1 to 10, 10 being loudest and 1 being softest.

Channel 1 has a track playing at volume 7. The volume level is set to 100%. Channel 2 has a track playing at volume 5. The volume level is set to 100%. Hmm how to make channel 2 louder?? Set the gain higher on channel 2 SUCH that it's at volume 7 at 100%, like channel 1.

Conversely, if channel 2 is at volume 9 and 100%, lower the gain so that it's volume 7 at 100%.

Another advantage of this is that you can screw around with the volume faders, knowing confidently that when you slam them back to 100% you have volume 7, which is what you want (just as an example).

and next time I'll post from IE, since the forum apparently still doesn't like FF!

bitflipper


On a real mixer, the Gain (or Trim) control is usually a passive volume control at the very front of the signal chain, before any active components. The idea is to set the incoming signal to an ideal level for the mixer, e.g. not overdriving the mixer channel's preamp. In a virtual mixer, the gain/trim adjustment also happens before anything else, but is otherwise identical to a volume control in every way.

I use SONAR's gain/trim control to get an initial rough mix, so each track is in the approximate ballpark volume-wise. It's important to do this before applying any compressors, as subsequent adjustments to the gain/trim will affect the compressor's threshold setting.

The volume control in a SONAR channel does exactly the same thing as the gain/trim control, except that the adjustment occurs post-FX and therefore has no effect on any effects in the FX bin. You can think of the gain/trim and volume sliders as two volume controls, one before effects and one after. You can also think of gain/trim as a coarse adjustment and the volume control as a fine adjustment.

So, Really the difference between gain and volume is that gain controls the INPUT of the channel that is some sort of gate that lets through more or less voltage from the source? The volume faders control the OUTPUT?
 
should I basically only use the gain to compensate the levels of different tunes?

when you boost a frequency in an EQ, you are adding GAIN


when you move a fader, you are changing LEVEL

There are two different definitions going on here, which is probably making him even more confused. There's the functions on a mixer or a guitar amp, and then there are the general terms which are not really all that tightly defined. Even in the hardware sense they aren't tightly defined. I mean, what is "makeup gain"? It's gain, but it's added as the signal is leaving the compressor, not when it's going in. Many devices also have input gain, though it might be called 'drive' or some other such thing instead.)

So isn't it kind of a lost cause to try to come up with a formal definition for these things? About the only place they seem consistently used is the mixer scenario. Guitar amps have input gain and output volume, but the gain may be called overdrive or some other thing. Even in the hardware world, if you have a compressor as the last thing in the outboard chain on a channel, and you just left the fader flat, the output 'gain' of the compressor could provide the exact same function as the channel's volume fader.
 

sharpdion23

Guitarhacker


A non-technical perspective: 

I never touch the gain control. Just the channel and master faders.  My input levels are finely tuned and adjusted so there is no need to mess with the gain.

How do you adjust your input levels?

from the interface..... my mic and guitar go into the interface... it has a channel gain control on it. I usually do not have to adjust them much since with the mic, the level is set at what I have determined to be a solid input level,,,,, and on the guitar... well I use the same input channel, leave the input gain alone and use the POD2 guitar gizmo's output volume to control the level, again, I pretty much know how far up I can turn that sucker to get a solid signal..... then of course, I am also looking at the wave that gets painted into the track. 


If the wave is weak.... depending on the source, I crank the interface a few clicks or turn up the POD output as long as the noise doesn't go up. 

ChuckC


Sharpdion23,
   When you start a new project all levels are at a default of 0. Leave them there for now.  As you rrecord each track you should adjust the input on your interface so that you have a nice healthy level going in.  Not too low, but not peaking out at 0  Generally somewhere from around -15 to -6 let's say.  Now you have yout tracks recorded.   As bit suggests it is now a good idea (with all faders still at 0) to do quick rough mix using the input gain to get most of the tracks reaching approximately the same levels (typically around the 0 mark).   So now as you start to actually mix and add FX you faders are still all at zero.  If you add an eq boost and a reverb on a track the meter may be jumping up so you can now lower the fader to keep your mix in check as you move along tweaking each track.  You never want all the faders up as far as the can and just maxing out.  

Hope that helps some.

Ok, so this is what I understood so far. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
When I record, I leave all the track's setting (volume and gain faders) at default.
 

 
Before I record anything, I test out the recording level. I adjust the "SENS" (see above picture) otherwise called "INPUT" until the meters on the track is reaches about -6db and not hitting the red
zone.
 
Now after I finish recording, I play the whole project that contains other tracks. I use the "GAIN" faders on the track to do a rough mix.
 
Then I apply my FX (EQ, Compressors, Reverb, etc.....)
 
After that, I use the "VOLUME" fader on the track to readjust the track levels to fit into the song because the FX either made the track too loud or soft.

There's no particular need to use the gain faders on the tracks to do a rough mix. Some people do it, but it's not something that lots of folks do. Most folks just use the faders.
 
So when do YOU use the gain faders?

Optimally you'd record some key tracks early, you'd record those so that they are appropriately balanced as recorded or really close, and at the right levels in terms of what you are ending up with on the master bus. Then everything else you record at the appropriate levels relative to those key basic tracks, with their faders flat at 0. I.e. mix it as you record it. If you do that, then you'll have almost a basic mix at the end with everything just flat, then you just use the faders to adjust from there.
 
If I understood correctly, The first few tracks I record, I should leave at default making sure that I have the right levels before recording. Now when I record the other tracks, I adjust the record level using the "SENS" knob on my Interface so that it sounds as if the it is already pre mixed with the other tracks and NOT looking at the meter to see if they are reaching around -6db.

There's a good argument that you should, on each thing in the f/x big, use its makeup gain to get the track level back to where it was before the f/x was applied. This way, you can easily do A/B comparisons by just bypassing each f/x and the track level won't change substantially. So you can quickly get a feel for how the application of each f/x is affecting the signal, and you also don't affect the level of signal that any subsequent f/x on that track will see, which might also change the sound a lot, making it hard to A/B.
 
If I understood correctly, When I add an FX there usually is an output fader built into the plugin. So after I do the changes I need using the plugin, I use the "OUTPUT" fader that is built in the plugin to put back the original level that it was in before the plugin was applied?

And when I say get it back to the same level, I mean generally as heard, not always using peak levels. Compression will increase average level, so if you bring the peaks back up to the same level as before it'll be a lot louder than it was. Similarly EQ'ing can have the same effect in that the peaks may be now driven by frequencies that aren't as apparent or are more apparent in the mix, so getting back to the same peak level might make it too loud or quiet. So you often have to do it by ear, i.e. flip the bypass on the f/x a few times. Does it sound very close to the same level as heard in the mix.
This is a vey good point. So this is what I understood. Plugins like the compressor will increase the average level but it will keep the peaks so it doesn't reach the red zone. Making reading meters not recommended. Rather it's more reliable to use your ears?
Not everyone does that, but there's something to be said for it. If you aren't going to apply EQ and comrpession on the way in (which real men do), then you may want to record it a little hotter than it needs to be in the track, so that you can lose some signal without even needing any makeup gain and end up at the right place in the end. But something sharp and percussive, like a tamborine or bright wood block, that doesn't need to have a very high level at all as recorded, but it'll be very hearable even so. If you record it at the same peak levels as other stuff, you'll end up turning the fader almost all the way down in the mix probably. Something like a string pad might need to be recorded considerably higher to be heard appropriately, because it's a soft sound with almost no dynamics. Though, if you really want it to be way back in the background, then maybe it would still be recorded fairly low.
 
What do you mean by applying EQ and Compression on the way in? I have also experienced that some instruments even at lower levels tend to stand out even though other instruments are already at higher levels.

During recording, the fader is purely controlling the monitor volume, i.e. how loud it sounds to you as you record, it doesn't affect the signal at all. The signal level as recorded is purely driven by the level of the signal coming into the DAW.
I was just about to ask this question. So basically, Even If I put my volume and gain faders all the way up, my recording signal stays the same? I sometimes to this because the instrument is hard to hear while recording.

the best place to adjust input levels, is at the output of your interface, whether it's a mixer, a microphone preamp, or other.......

I might be missing something here but on my mixer I can't set input levels at the output stage, it's impossible. The only place I can set input levels on any mixer I've ever used is the input gain stage.

Any adjustment of levels past that point is just affecting the monitoring level.

*He is right in that you don't have to touch the gain faders at all if you recorded levels work out well, and yes many only use the faders. For the most part I don't play with the gain unless something was recorded too low or too hot. There are many places you can alter gain "gain staging".
1) on the way in using your mic pre
2) trim knob in sonar
3) output slider on the bottom of the sonitus EQ (if you make deep eq cuts you may want to boost level here to compensate)
4) make up gain on most compressors, or for that mater there is usually an output level on most fx plugs,
5) track faders
6) bus faders
7) master bus fader
 
So, If I record too low or too hot, I use the track gain fader to compensate, when that's good, I continue with the plugins such as the EQ.
If I start peaking because of the EQ I use the output fader built in the plugin (like the gain fader on the track) to compensate for the changes I've done while EQing.
I do this each time I add a plugin such as compressor, reverb....
Then I mix using the tracks volume faders.
 
Question: When do I use the Bus faders/Masterbus faders and Master output faders?

A track can be clipping at any stage too so keep that in mind! There have been times that I was hearing digital clipping and the fader meters showed none but I eventually tracked it to an EQ output that was clipping and making noise. This is where the trim knob can be useful. Let's say all is well but then you have to drastically cut some frequencies while boosting the hell out of the others. Now the eq's output is peaking due to the frequency boosts. You can either adjust the trim (effectively lowering the input) or lower the eq's output. these options can be a lifesaver when you spend time to automate an entire vocal track and later need the whole thing 1 db + or -, rather than altering the automation you can tweak the output of the last plug in your chain instead.

*You should always reference your meters to ensure you are not clipping. If it clips on the way in the take is useless.

* Yes you got that right

* Compressors will effect the waveforms peaks, other than checking for clipping, you should mix with yer ears, not your eyes.
Or you can expect the type of results one might get by closing your eyes and using your ears to shoot a video of your kids baseball game. It makes the same amount of sense. :)

** Eq on the way in.... he means, if you used an outboard piece of gear (like a compression pedal, or a rack eq) before you sent the signal into sonar.
Part B- that is the magic of eq and getting instruments to sit together in the mix.
 
I have no outboard gears, I only have the SPS-66 Interface.

 All great info. I would add that from a hardware perspective all stages of gain have a sweet spot where they are optimal and after that you get diminishing returns. A gain stage adjusted to beyond its  threshold will produce more noise,or amplify the existing noise to a point where it becomes very noticable. This can add audible noise to your mix.

 The better op amps have a higher threshold before this happens. Its kind of like a microscope in the optical world. Skin looks smooth until you look at it through a microscope. The same thing happens to an overdriven gain stage,all of its flaws are magnified.

 One of the most unscientific methods I know of is pretty obvious. Adjust your gain up with no signal going into it until you start to hear noise from it. Then adjust it back down slowly until the noise seems to go away. Then further adjust to your source to get a good match between your source and your gain. On my Mackie that is usually halfway or less. On your interface it will probably be similar.

Question: When do I use the Bus faders/Masterbus faders and Master output faders?

Rather than retyping it all, I recently attempted to explain buses to another forumite, Check out post #6. That may help.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2504972

How could I forget!? Of course. I have been doing this for a while now.

What about the master outputs? What are they used for? The one with red faders.

The master bus fader might be used for a  song fade out or something like that, or to do some overall song level changes, e.g. bring it down a bit in the verse, push it up a bit in the chorus, that sort of thing.

while tracking, i set up a sub buss called 'HEADPHONE'

i'll route all my previously tracked channels to that buss, so i can easily bring that level up or down with one fader move, to match whatever level i end up getting in my headphone or monitor feed while tracking new channels.

it's just easier that way, than trying to jocky other tracks to levels that suit what i want to hear in the cans while tracking.

Glad to be in a position to give a little something back guitarman1...  God knows I have learned a ton from this forum too.