vintagevibe

jsg

There are not too many "modern DAWs" with notation in the first place:  There's Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools, Sonar and Digital Performer.  That's it.  You make it sound like there are gobs of DAWS out there, all with great notation.  DP's notation seems better than Sonar's but I can't get it to not crash on my system so Sonar's staff view is better than none.  When you're composing for 40 instruments and writing 900 measure pieces a simple staff view that doesn't try to be a professional notation program works for me so I can focus on composition rather than trying to create a performance-level score before I've even produced my work. 

What exactly can you do, in terms of MIDI editing and MIDI playback in Cubase that you cannot do in Sonar?   Give specific examples please--If you want to be right, or at least be perceived as being right, then please back up your assertion with facts and examples.  No need to mention display of tied and dotted triplets, or display of 32nd triplets or 64th notes.  Everyone knows Sonar's weakness in that area (I still write with those values of course because Sonar plays it back accurately so it doesn't limit my musical imagination). 

p.s.  I went to your website Dean and it's infected with a Trojan Virus, not kidding.  Lucky for me, my anti-virus software caught it and blocked it.  Thought you'd want to know...

JG
www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm

I never said anything bout "gobs" of DAWs with notation.  I mentioned the competition.  You admit that DP has better notation but you can't use it so why the pissing contest?  If you download the Cubase 7 demo you'll find a huge notation tool pallet, far easier and note entry, ability to do tuplets, and a notation screen that isn't an eye strain just for starters.  I feel no "need" to be right.  It's just a fact agreed upon, even by Cakewalk who have acknowledged the many weaknesses in the Sonar staff view, that it needs vast improvement.  I personally won't use it because it is so cumbersome.  I rewire to Sibelius which is still a compromise compared to notation inside the DAW.  Feel free to use Sonar's staff view all you want but there really is no need to be so defensive.


P.S.  You did not get any trojan or virus from my web site.  You must have gotten a false warning.

 
Here's some more comparisons between Sonar X2a staff view and DP8 for Windows staff view:  While DP displays tied triplets, 64th notes and 32nd triplets correctly, (DP does not display dotted triplets correctly either) and Sonar does not, Sonar staff view has other advantages:  
  
You can lock views so you can have multiple staff windows open at the same time.  This is a great time-saver, you can have one staff for winds, one for percussion, one for strings, one for all instruments.  No other DAW with a staff view, that I know of, has that feature.  
 
DP is a great program, so is Sonar. One thing I love about Sonar is the option to rename controllers--and those names actually show up in the event list every time you use that controller.  Can't do that with DP or Cubase.  (with DP you can rename them, but they only show up at the top of the event list, not in the actual list). 
 
Also, Sonar fonts are a bit bigger.  Easier on the eyes to look at fonts that are not tiny, DP fonts are pretty darn small. 
 
I rarely use 32nd note triplets or 64th notes. Very rarely.  So, the staff view in DP really has one important advantage, and that is the ability to see tied triplets correctly.  But because I use the staff view only as a midi input tool and midi editing tool, this is not such a big deal, as I said, it's playback that really counts, and Sonar playback is really excellent and always has been for me.  When I make a score, I use Sibelius. 
 
Since I plan on being monogamous with my DAW, I will choose one, and I believe it will be Sonar.  I almost got divorced, but in reality there is nothing I can do with DP that I can't do with Sonar, and the inverse is true too.  But everyone works differently, so obviously others will feel differently.  They are both great DAWS.  If I knew DP as well as I know Sonar, I might feel differently.  But truth is, switching DAWs is really like getting a divorce and is often not the root of one's problems. 
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm
 
 

Jlien X

...wicked


DP has two amazing features that I've been wanting in SONAR for YEARS. 

One: constantly centered NOW time. Yup, scrolling timeline. It's wonderful.
Two: a record mode that is MIDI ON activated. So you click it, then as soon as you start playing it starts recording. Sublime for overdubs.

1: There is a shortcut key assignable command called "Center View on Now Time," but as you may already know, you have to keep pressing the key.

Not at all the same thing...far from ever being close.  The idea in Wicked's post, item One, is that the Now Time is fixed at the center and the wave form is in motion (scrolling from one side to the other).  Moving the Now time to the center in SONAR does not achieve this.

Kind regards,

Living Room Rocker

P.S.  I have also made feature requests for this to be added to SONAR.

vintagevibe

jsg
But truth is, switching DAWs is really like getting a divorce 

JG
www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm

Switching DAWs will be nightmare for me.  That's why I'm still here advocating for better notation but I'm just to the point of needing different tools.
 
 
 

I've been advocating for better notation for years, I've given up.  All I've asked is that CW fixes the tied/dotted triplet display and the display of 32nd note triplets and 64th notes, but I realize now it's too much to hope for.   I personally don't believe it will ever happen.  So DP8.2 for Windows may be when I finally give up Sonar.  But for now, Sonar X2a works and is very stable on my DAW and DP8 is not.  I am getting dropped MIDI notes and stuck notes, as though a cc64 or release time cc has been programmed into the sequence.  DP does have better notation, but the program hangs, so my best choice, like you, is to stay with X2.
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm

 

vintagevibe

jsg

  

I've been advocating for better notation for years, I've given up.  All I've asked is that CW fixes the tied/dotted triplet display and the display of 32nd note triplets and 64th notes, but I realize now it's too much to hope for.   I personally don't believe it will ever happen.  So DP8.2 for Windows may be when I finally give up Sonar.  But for now, Sonar X2a works and is very stable on my DAW and DP8 is not.  I am getting dropped MIDI notes and stuck notes, as though a cc64 or release time cc has been programmed into the sequence.  DP does have better notation, but the program hangs, so my best choice, like you, is to stay with X2.

JG
www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm

I'm ready to give up as well.  I wouldn't totally ditch Sonar because I don't want to use an iLok for my gig or teaching.  I'd lose or break it but for serious composition I need something else. The two choices are DP8 and Cubase.  I'm really interested in seeing what happens with Steinberg's newly acquired Sibelius team.  Cubase has good notation and may be it will integrate with their new notation app.  Anyway I'll be demoing both and when it's my budget I'll decide.

Highly unlikely, but maybe X3, an integer jump and probably a paid upgrade for everyone, will address some aspect of the Staff View.  If there isn't going to be an X2b, I is nice to fascinate that some of the time spent on X3 was directed toward the Staff View.


Staff View, and fixing other outstanding bugs which are important to other existing users.  It's not sexy, but, the closer they get to the competition, the better.

This video show some of Cubase's notation capabilities.  Very impressive! 

Scoring Basics in Cubase

Well, I've been keeping up with all the comments in this thread and since I never score movies and never will. I never use the staff view and never will, etc. etc. I have lost interest in DP. It seemed like something new and cool to check out as an alternative--but I certainly don't need to install anything unstable on my DAW.
 
Besides, my hands are full enough trying to learn X2 after coming straight off of Sonar 8!

jsg

vintagevibe

jsg
But truth is, switching DAWs is really like getting a divorce 

JG
www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm

Switching DAWs will be nightmare for me.  That's why I'm still here advocating for better notation but I'm just to the point of needing different tools.
 
 
 

I've been advocating for better notation for years, I've given up.  All I've asked is that CW fixes the tied/dotted triplet display and the display of 32nd note triplets and 64th notes, but I realize now it's too much to hope for.   I personally don't believe it will ever happen.  So DP8.2 for Windows may be when I finally give up Sonar.  But for now, Sonar X2a works and is very stable on my DAW and DP8 is not.  I am getting dropped MIDI notes and stuck notes, as though a cc64 or release time cc has been programmed into the sequence.  DP does have better notation, but the program hangs, so my best choice, like you, is to stay with X2.
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm

 

I think I'm in the same boat.  DP addresses my needs as far as video and I do prefer the notation, but I need it to be stable.  I assume it will be at some point and I think I will end up switching when I feel confident that it will work, much as I hate too.  I wish Cake would have upgraded notation and video capabilities but like you have given up hope of that ever happening.  A shame as I love everything else but video work in particular is looming large in my future.
 
Thanks for the tips about notation in Sonar, Jerry.  Very useful and will help me out in the mean time!
 
Jon

jsg

vintagevibe

jsg

vintagevibe


This video show some of Cubase's notation capabilities.  Very impressive! 

Scoring Basics in Cubase

I worked with Cubase's notation for a few weeks.  It does offer a lot of options for printing out music that is semi-pro (compared with Sibelius), but I thought the interface to be really clunky and much more complex than it need be for a DAW. 

It is not meant to be Sibelius,  Cubase is a DAW and Sibelius is a notation app.  The point is that you can compose within the DAW using notation. 

Duh...I'm the guy who first made that point a long time ago.  I was comparing the notation editor in Cubase with those in Sonar and DP.  It is clunky and very complex for what is essentially a midi editor and midi input tool.  Since Cubase's engineers seem to have spent a lot of time trying to make it like a notation printing program (much emphasis on musical symbols such as dynamics for example) I brought up Sibelius.  But Sibelius, which I use all the time, is very easy to learn and use.  So operational complexity does not equal effectiveness of results, that is obvious.
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm
 
 

I probably wouldn't user all the symbols or printing but the clean up tools alone would be invaluable for composing.