Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples?

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Russell.Whaley
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2008/09/15 10:29:39 (permalink)

Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples?

I've been resisting writing this post for a while... but am finally giving in...

I think I'm headed over the rainbow -- has anyone else noticed that amongst the "Real Basses" programs, the tuning on many of them seems to be off, sometimes by as much as 50 cts?

I cannot figure out why they seem to be off. I purchased some new monitor speakers a few months ago (not due to this issue), and the basses still seem sharp or flat, depending on the program. I've also checked this in headphones, and hear the same discrepancy. It's in the lower pitches that this is happening -- say, an octave below middle C and downwards.

I do have some hearing loss in some higher frequency ranges. Could it be that I'm hearing harmonics, overtones, or missing some of the fundamental that makes me think the samples are off? I know that I can tune Dim Pro to compensate for things like this... but would hate to "un-tune" something that didn't need fixing!

Thanks...

Russ




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    Fog
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/15 14:45:14 (permalink)
    Hey Russell, I have a strong sense of deja vu about what you mention. a few discussed it on here, I'm pretty sure Tom (b-rock) and Mike (McCue) were on that thread, but can't seem to find the exact thread now

    think the outcome was it was in tune, but it depends on the EQ and other factors. I'm sure (hoping) someone will jump into correct me, my memory is shocking.
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    Mercury
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/15 15:31:00 (permalink)
    I Think U are right. I also think the Male Choir is a bit out of tune.
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    mose
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/15 21:50:53 (permalink)
    Some of the steel guitars are out of tune. A post awhile back stated that Dim Pro goes out of tune if your project is anything other than 44.1. My projects are at 48. I haven't changed it to see if it fixes the problem.

    www.soundclick.com/russellmosemann (Electronica flavored ear candy)
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    AT
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/16 00:49:02 (permalink)
    I think that was one of Undertows complaints about Cakewalk - bass samples out of tune. I myself have a tin ear, so I haven't noticed any out of tune samples anywhere, and I don't use the DimPro bass at all.

    But I would think you could edit the SFZ file - doesn't it have a cents line? A **** for sure if the samples themselves are the problem, but if you just have to have it ...

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    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
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    Fog
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/16 18:42:45 (permalink)
    maybe there was an updated SFZ file for it, I can't find the thread from before, that's bugging me as I do remember typing on it. Hopefully B-rock will turn up and tell me it was the case.

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    Russell.Whaley
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/16 19:39:07 (permalink)
    Hmmm... I had not even thought of the sample rate. I run my rig at 24/48 at all times. When I get a moment, I'll do a quick session using 44.1 to see if there is a difference. IF this is the problem... a bit of sand in the shorts, eh? Thanks for the suggestion.

    Russ





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    Russell.Whaley
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/18 23:27:00 (permalink)
    Update: I tested Dim Pro again using 44.1/24... and the pitches were right on, or close enough I can't tell the difference.

    How would you edit an .sfz file to fix the issue? I'm game to do a little hacking, but haven't done anything like that before.

    Cheers,

    Russ




    #8
    kwgm
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/19 02:02:24 (permalink)
    Here you go, Russ.

    SFZ file format doc

    --kwgm
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    b rock
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/19 07:53:22 (permalink)
    I've been holding back to see the results of your sample rate testing, Russ. I can add to the reference link posted by kwgm above. It's difficult to give a specific solution, because no specific presets were mentioned (beyond the Male Choir).

    A general approach isn't all that difficult to detail, and it offers a permanent solution. I wouldn't go at this 'globally', using the Transpose parameter at the Element level. It'd be prudent to back up any .sfz files that you're editing; at least until you're comfortable with the process and the results.
    ****************

    ****************
    Call up the program file that's bothering you, and note the .sfz file name that serves as the core.
    It's listed under the 'Load Multisamples' slot; just under the Program Browser slot at the top.

    Click in the Load Multisamples slot, and navigate to the .sfz file that you've determined to be the editing target.
    If it's one of the 'Real Basses' presets, for example, it'll be in the '13 - Electric Basses', or '14 - Acoustic Basses' folder.

    Right-click on the file name, and select 'Open' or 'Edit'. A text editor will pop up, containing the .sfz file in question.
    You'll see all sorts of sample definitions ("<region>"), usually with a Tune parameter at the tail end of each line.
    If not, a Tune=X opcode can be appended, with X being the tuning offset in cents (positive or negative).

    Now, you have to figure out which keys sound out-of-tune to you. Play a few scales and make notes of the offending ... notes.
    You can do all this with the Dimension Pro microhost open, alongside your open text editor. Nothing changes until you save the file.
    ****************

    ****************
    .sfz files use the International Pitch Notation convention (not the Acoustical Society of America notation adopted by Cakewalk host programs). That places middle C=C4 (MIDI Note 60). Here's a chart to use. All you have to be concerned with from this illustration is the Note name (or MIDI number) and the Keyboard column.



    ****************
    Match the 'Note name' to what you're hearing, and adjust the Tune parameter in the sample <region> that contains it.
    The 'key=' determines the central note, with 'lokey=' and 'hikey=' spreading the same sample over 2, 3, or possibly 4 keys.

    Make adjustments to the Tune opcodes, Save the .sfz file, and reload it (or the parent preset) back into Dimension Pro.
    If you're guessing at the number of cents "out of tune", it's going to take a few tries to get it right.
    ****************

    ****************
    For more information, see the Sfz in the Grand Piano tutorial(s) [dissecting the .sfz parameters of an existing preset].

    If anyone is waiting on a perceived problem to be updated for you, consider that Dimension Pro is soon to become part of Sonar8. I'm not certain that's the 'end of the line' for it, in terms of development, but you can review the history of that move and judge for yourself.
    #10
    Russell.Whaley
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/19 11:18:00 (permalink)
    Thanks, Tom. Another thought that has occurred to me between writing my last post and reading yours, is that I might also evaluate the tuning with an electronic, chromatic tuner that has nothing to do with my DAW, and see what it thinks -- completely outside the box.

    I haven't had this problem with all programs. All of the guitars are right on (and I've been blessed/cursed with absolute pitch, which even a little hearing loss hasn't stifled), and the piano and organ programs also sound right on. When I get into the lower-frequency instruments, particularly the bass guitars and synth versions thereof, this issue starts surfacing.

    When I start on this "little project," I'll make some detailed notes and observations to post here for the benefit of others who might be dealing with this quirk in DP.

    Cheers,

    Russ




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    AT
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    RE: Dim Pro - Out-of-tune samples? 2008/09/19 11:35:51 (permalink)
    B Rock to the rescue.

    Again, I wish Cakewalk would make a instruments/SFZ site with all the collected wisdom of Tom and Bob and René etc. centraly located. There is so much out there, yet scattered The P5 site is a great resource for the above, but P5 ain't a synth.

    Now, my Christmas list ...

    cordially,

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    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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