Dim Pro vs. Rapture vs. Zeta vs. TTS vs. Studio Instruments

Hello again everyone. Now that I'm starting to get the hang of X1 I wanted to ask about some of the other content... specifically synths. I am new to the whole synth thing and MIDI in general and I was hoping you guys could help explain the differences of these particular programs. Basically what would be used for what applications, how you guys use them, what their individual advantages and disadvantages are and just general thoughts and opinions. That way I can start to mull over how I might use them for my purposes. I also don't have a proper keyboard controller yet (soon though) so at the moment if I started playing around with them I'd be inputting with just point and click VIA PRV/Staff View/Step Sequencer or perhaps directly with my padKontrol so any tips or techniques in regards to that topic would be helpful too. Figured it might be an interesting thread for others to perhaps learn and share new stuff as well. Hope you all had a safe and happy 4th of July. Cheers.

Cool, Linear Phase. Yeah, I guess it is a very broad topic but I figured everyone would have a different angle on it and toss in their two cents which would help me understand what the heck it all does. That was quite helpful. I always enjoy your posts. Cheers.

@Mystic... So if I'm reading that correctly Z3ta is kind of like a "synth" synth so if I wanted to do stuff like Edgar Winters did in the old days messing around with those old synthy type sounds I would use that. If I wanted to screw around with samples and more realistic sounding instruments I would use DimPro and Rapture (but I could still do the synthy sounds as well). And TTS would kind of be like picking up a really nice Casio keyboard from Radio Shack with general use sounds programmed into it. Am I close? And thanks for your input. I'm more of a flesh and nail musician but if I can open up more musical doors I'm always down. Cheers.

Beepster


@Mystic... So if I'm reading that correctly Z3ta is kind of like a "synth" synth so if I wanted to do stuff like Edgar Winters did in the old days messing around with those old synthy type sounds I would use that. If I wanted to screw around with samples and more realistic sounding instruments I would use DimPro and Rapture (but I could still do the synthy sounds as well). And TTS would kind of be like picking up a really nice Casio keyboard from Radio Shack with general use sounds programmed into it. Am I close? And thanks for your input. I'm more of a flesh and nail musician but if I can open up more musical doors I'm always down. Cheers.

Thats it exactly beep..
 
TTS is far better than your radio shack casio though.. use TTS when you want to simply pick an instrument without the mucking about..

As has been said, this is such a broad topic, although you do narrow it down a touch by mentioning specific "soft synths." Basically, and in my opinion only, it does not really matter much which synthesis type, or which of the aforementioned soft synths you choose to use for any given project you embark upon. At the end of the day I just use whatever inspires me at the time. And by that, I mean the sounds that you find within those "tools."

I used to be a synth snob... truly, and I would only show an interest in the so called "old fashioned" subtractive analog synths, as produced by Moog and Roland at the time. I think Korg made a subtractive synth back in the day, I think it would have had the moniker of MS something or other.

I still remember to this day getting my hands on a Yamaha DX-1 and I absolutely hated it. It was classed as a FM synth and I found it really difficult to get a sound out of it. Whereas I could approach something like a Jupiter 8, that had been fiddle with to the point of being unusable, and withing less than a minute I could get exactly the sound I wanted out of it.

But that is all old hat now, and you may well not actually be interested in the history of synthesizers. If you are, then the Wikipedia link posted by Linear Phase is an excellent starting point, and there are other links in there that will take you on a fantastic historic voyage if you fancy it. If you are not exactly a fan of electronic music, as such, then, as I said earlier, it depends upon what sort of sound you are after, and whether or not you want to tweak those sounds as a note is being played.

Some so called synthesizers are not really synths, as far as I am concerned. I have a Yamaha A3000. It is a sampler, pure and simple. You may be able to create envelopes, or uses low frequency oscillators to affect amplitude and and tone (filter), but that is about it.

TTS-1 is, as far as I am concerned, a sampler. You are able to mix different samples, or sounds, in layers, that will give you new sounds, but the term synthesizer, for me at least, is a "tool" that allows me to create totally new sounds created from basic wave forms, which are then tweaked and affected further with VCFs, VCOs, LFOs and envelope generators. That is not to say that TTS-1 is no good, for from it, and you may find just the sound you need in there to use "as is."


Cor blimey mate... I'm just rambling on a little bit too much here, as usual. I was hoping to get a bit more done with X1 tonight, but I saw this and I couldn't help but put my own $5.63 in the ring.

I've got to call it a day for now though or else I will go on for ever and ever... I can talk for hours about this subject.

But, before I go, I would like to cover the question you asked, "what would be used for what applications." Now this might sound like a bit of a cliche, but I always like to remind people that "Rule 1, there ain't no rules!" Okay, might not be totally true, and you will get peeps saying that such and such is a classic D'n'B sound, or a dance floor shaker, or might say "hey! You can't use that sound in this track." It's a bit like cooking though, and sometimes you just need to experiment and see what come out of the oven.


Can I also ask then, and I already know that guitar is your weapon of choice (at least I think it is), what exactly are you doing turning to synths? Is it so you can create your own backing tracks for your guitar music? Do you need to hear, or use a particular real world instrument sound? Or do you fancy creating some dance music of your own? I say dance, because that's what some people think electronic music is nowadays, whereas I am still stuck in the days of Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk and JM Jarre, to name but a few of the more known artists.






If you got this far Beepster, you've done well, and I hope I haven't put you off the subject. I look forward to your thoughts on my ramblings here, or not, as the case may well be lol

TTS is the oldest.  As said above, it is a general midi synth, a step up from the soundcards of yore.

You can also get SFZ+ for free - it is a soundfont (sample) player.  There are still lots of free banks out there from the old Soundblaster days.

Studio Instruments is a step up from TTS, but less inclusive of a library.  It also has some midi files associated w/ it.  There is a great Doorsish song included w/ the keys.  Still, it is more of a scratchpad synth rather than a pro synth.

Z3TA was an RGC synth.  Cake bought it and brought René onboard.  It is an analog emulation synth that you load in waveforms, not samples per se.  It is fairly modular.  A good synth to make synth-like sounds, and includes waveshaping, ring mod and other classic analog methods of mangling sound.  Most of the presets are electronic, like synths.  There are some great libraries for it, including the Muzeum.

Dimension was the first synth René designed for Cake.  It was included in P5 (which also had a bunch of other synths, drum machines, etc.).  DimPro was the same synth with a larger sample library.  IT was sold separate, then included in SONAR.  It will play back samples, but will wavetable shorter samples (3000, as I recall).  A lot of good orchestra presets, along w/ the weird dimension folder w/ all kinds of evolving sounds.

Rapture was the next René synth.  Same faceplate as Dimpro, but w/ 6 "elements" (think of them as ocillators) instead of 4, and more modifiers.  Wavetable only, it looks at any sample you load in and turns it into a wavetable.  That allows the synth to alter the pitch w/o munchkinization etc, just as an analog ocillator doesn't really change character - just pitch.  The library leans to electronic sounds, as do the samples.  Pretty simple to program once you get how it works, and if you start on Dimpro it is trés easy.  Check out Patcharena.com for the Muzeum, etc. patches.  Really expands the synth.

In general, those last three synths are the ones you want to use for your final product.  AS good as any other synth engine.  Most likely a higher quality sound can be found or made from them than from TTS etc.  Dimpro and Rapt both cut nicely - the wavetable engine is really clear and clean, even after piling on distortion and bit reduction.  Z3ta is a thicker synth - more like an analog synth.  They work well together, and they work well against other analog emulation synths and those that drip w/ reverb.  Dim and Rapt will cut right through the mush.

Beatscape was René's last synth for Cake, I believe.  It didnt' quite come off, tho the samples w/ it are good (drag them into the timeline to listen).  I'm hoping Cake will release Beatscape 2 as a pad instrument that is easier to use, more maleable, and tighter.  René is gone, so I don't know who, if anyone, they will get to finish it.

And there you have a brief history of Cake's synth, tho I left out a slew of them - rxp, pentagon, goove synth, etc.

@

Wow... amazing stuff all around.

@synkrotron... That was awesome and you can yammer your synth knowledge at me all day and any day. Very informative.

@John... I am reasonably well thank you. I think it's gonna take some serious kanoodling for me to really see what's happening with them all. I need to get a proper input device to make it happen. I'm thinking of an Axiom 25 pro currently but I gotta save up. In the meantime it will be all point and click which obviously isn't nearly as satisfying but at least I can get an idea of what's happening. Those fancy GUIs kind of intimidate me a bit though. lol

@ AT... you sir, amaze me. Thank you for that. What a wonderfully detailed history. I knew this thread would be interesting.

@Linear Phase... IKNORITE?! Awesomeness abounding. :-)

@synkrotron... Sorry for the late reply. I went hog wild on a bunch of stuff yesterday and didn't get much chance to poke around the forum. I'd play with the sound shaping stuff or whatever just out of curiosity but I'd imagine I'll probably stick at least somewhat to the presets. My disdain is more for guitar amp/effects presets because with that stuff I actually know what I'm doing. Keyboards... not so much.

As far as controllers I spent a fair amount of time looking around and even asked the forum what I should looking at and the Axiom line seemed like a good choice for what I need. I want something small that will fit easily into my deskpace and that I can move around without hurting myself (I injure easily). I like the idea of having access to pads on the device to slap out beats or change programs or whatever. Faders and knobs I definitely wanted to control pretty much all the parameters I can. I hate using a mouse for the stuff and even my old trackball is kind of annoying for that type of work and there is no way I can afford a proper control surface at this point. I was gonna get an Akai Microkey 25 (or whatever it is called) but found out it has smaller than standard keys so that was no good. It's larger version is far bigger and more expensive so it wasn't looking as appealing. I found the Axiom up here in Canuckerland going for under $200 so that's not bad. The weighted keys might actually be better for me as the short time I did have access to a keyboard (and had room and time to play it) it was a Fender Rhodes. Very nice.

Eventually I'm probably going to snag a larger scale M-Audio Oxygen controller to do more proper keyboard work but I really need something just for input that's not gonna sit in the corner because it's too big to set up every time. I'll take a look at your other suggestions though and see what's up. Thanks.

The Step Sequencer is cool but I couldn't figure out how to input stuff while it was playing so I've abandoned it for now.

Yeah, I was pretty disappointed with that. I was trying to input with my padKontrol and it would only do it while stopped. I just wanted to toss in hits each round until I had the beat I wanted. Nada. SToons told me how to do it in the TV using the loop function so that seems to be working... aside from my absolutely horrific meter. lol

Yeah I'm just being stubborn. I've got it in my head that it's more "pure" if I actually tap the beats in live. Probably gonna waste a lot of time that way trying to get things right but I want to get good at it.