danika
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Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
Being a midi old-timer, I thought I knew what multitimbral meant. Namely, you can load different patches into different channels and play them all simultaneously. So I try to use multitimbral mode in Dimension Pro, and the documentation says: "When a program is in Multi-timbral mode, the four Elements respond to MIDI channels 1-4, respectively." Huh? You can still only load one program at at time. What's the point?
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René
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/05/27 15:29:26
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There're several points. You can either arrange multiple sound by loading element files in the four elements, very common to assemble patches (this is the "traditional" multitimbral approach. But the intended use is to allow the four elements to have their own different note sources for single sounds, like if you were controlling the four oscillators in a synth with different MIDI sources.
-René
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lfm
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/05/28 07:49:13
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Also being a midi oldtimer with Cakewalk Pro 3 as the first Cake product(and c couple Atari and Commodore before that), I had to rethink using DP.
Multiple instances is the way to go. Not having multiple outs in DP you will fail getting the control you want from different patches.
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Kelsin
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/05/28 13:09:40
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Yeah, Dimension Pro's miltitimbral mode is not made for making one instance play multiple isntruments. If you want a great piano and great strings at the same time you just load up two Dimension's. I figure if you use it for a while you'll find a use for multitimbral eventually :)
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lawapa
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/05/28 14:30:40
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I see multitimbral as a hold over from when synths had very minimal resources. The overall limitations where not that great
;)+) but it was the best to could do then. Now it just makes no sence not to have the full abilities with each sound that Dpro offers.
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ericlemmons
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/01 20:13:31
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My take on this is old fashioned also. I thought you could make Dimension Pro play 4 different sounds on 4 different midi channels.
I would have preferred a SampleTank type interface, where one instance can load 16 different dounds assigned to 16 different midi channels.
Also, SampleTank will respond to the midi parameters on each individual track, Volume, for example. Unless I'm doing something wrong you have to use the Dimension Pro audio output instance to contral the volume of that sound. Sure, it "works", but it is a little counter-intuitive, and seems like it's not resource efficient.
However, I am not an expert programmer. Perhaps Dim Pro's approach is better for sound and sound engineering purposes.
Eric
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b rock
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/01 21:26:02
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I thought you could make Dimension Pro play 4 different sounds on 4 different midi channels. But you can, Eric. Set Program as Multitimbral in Options. Each Element is controlled over MIDI channels 1-4. I really don't see how this is all that different from a traditional hardware approach, except that it's been layered and improved upon. I look at Dimension Pro/Rapture Programs as Combis or Multis would perform in hardware synths. I approach Elements as individual synths or patches in the traditional sense. It always pops up about how these Elements are mixed down to a single stereo output, but you had to go fairly high-end in the past to consider individual outs for each component of a multitimbral synth. In the DP/RP synths, you add to that keyboard & velocity splits, manage your polyphony, set individual controllers per-Element, etc. Pair this with a good like-minded controller (or multiple controllers), and you have most everything that a multitimbral hardware synth can deliver, with less limitations & greater upward expandability. Now if I could just make this (affordably & reliably) portable ... 
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ericlemmons
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/02 01:41:59
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Thanks for the reply.
I've played with this multitimbral option. Here is what happens.
If I load a DPro "patch" or "sound" it takes up all for elements usually. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the idea of element.
It seems like all of the main sounds that are in DPro take up more than one element, often all 4. So even with the "multitimbral" option set to on, You're limited to "elements", not the main patches.
I will play more with the elements, and see what I can do with them. When I go to load "elements", I only find a very few that ship with the product.
It seems to me that even if you can get 4 "elements" to play at one time, that the elements are much more limited than the full-fledged "sounds" in DPro.
I still think it would be nice to be able to control volume from the midi channel with DPro, like with Sampletank.
I'm not really unhappy with DPro, I still like it. It's just a little time-consuming and kludgy to have to start a separate instance for each midi channel.
Thanks again for the reply.
Eric
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lawapa
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/02 15:38:25
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When I first started using midi the limits where quite apparent. And since I could not afford to buy a large number of hardware units to satisfy my need for more patches up and running for a sequence, that ol diehard multitimbral mode saved the day many times. But once I started using a computer to do midi and software synths for sound I began to take a different tack. I use midi now more like virtual audio tracks. Once I've honed my timing and placement I render to audio for further processing. Audio is where you want to end up. Now you can use automation to make a software synth come alive, but for a good final mix it needs audio to process. Volume and pan are best left to your audio tracks after render if you do go this route. Not everyone likes this way of doing things I do understand this. But total control over the sounds you use in your compositions is a touch more readily available with each sound a distinct audio track. Organizing a large number of synth tracks seems difficult at first but if you plan out your song it can be easy. This does force you to take a more advanced take on you sequences. Managing 20+audio tracks seems like pain but with automation and a little patience the end result can be much improved over the alternative.
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ericlemmons
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/03 19:43:19
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I agree with you conceptually.
Thanks for the reply.
Eric
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danika
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/09 11:14:48
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ORIGINAL: lfm
Also being a midi oldtimer with Cakewalk Pro 3 as the first Cake product(and c couple Atari and Commodore before that), I had to rethink using DP.
Multiple instances is the way to go. Not having multiple outs in DP you will fail getting the control you want from different patches.
No multiple outputs is another one of my gripes about DP. Sure I can always add more instances and burn up more memory. But there are lots of other products on the market that are both multitimbral and have multiple outputs. Native Instruments Konkakt, for example, can handle 4 banks of 16 midi channels each and has 16 outputs. Reason will support virtually an ulimited number of midi banks/channels and 64 outputs. Sample Tank has 16 multitimbral inputs as well as multiple outputs. Even lower end products like Vsampler and Wusikstation have 16 multitimbral inputs and 4 outputs. DP has some good sounds. However, architecturally it is pretty limited.
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René
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/09 13:23:51
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No multiple outputs is another one of my gripes about DP. Sure I can always add more instances and burn up more memory. DP won't burn any more memory when inserting new instances compared with multitimbral use. All the contrary: If we'd make a 16 channel version of DP, it would certainly take more memory than the current approach. As it is, it allows you to -either- insert the instances you need, -or- insert 16 instances and have a full multitimbral setup. Sampletank and VSampler are samplers. Sampletank is a sample-playback module. Dimension Pro, on the other hand, is a synthesizer, which blows all the others in your list out of the water in terms of synthesis power. The fact that it isn't multitimbral is just a design paradigm, it wasn't intended to be a GM playback module. That design paradigm is the same as in most other synthesizers, like z3ta+, impOSCar, FM7, Pro53, ModularMoog, etc. -René
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/09 15:19:24
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ORIGINAL: lawapa
I see multitimbral as a hold over from when synths had very minimal resources. The overall limitations where not that great
;)+) but it was the best to could do then. Now it just makes no sence not to have the full abilities with each sound that Dpro offers.
I completely agree.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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lawapa
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/09 16:14:53
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I did try several types of multi-timbral synths as demo's. I rejected these for more powerful ones that had that tweak-ability factor. And I've never looked back. While I'm grounded in the early days of midi limitations I do cheerfully embrace their demise. And I thank Rene and Cakewalk for there efforts in doing this. This effort is forward thinking. And the advantages are many.
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secretagent001
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/13 17:41:27
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My first synth was a Roland D-20 "Workstation" - a sequencer built into a synth. Multi-Timbral then (1988) was essential for the machine to produce drums AND bass AND whatever else. Nowadays, the PC is the multi-timbral instrument, where it can produce all the sounds you like at the same time, using a range of sources from SoundFonts to SoftSynths. When I ordered my copy of DP - which I am utterly delighted with - I have to admit that the term "multi timbral" brought back that feeling of awesome power that it did in 1988, but the fact is, who cares?
In 1988 a multi timbral instument would assign a different sound to each midi track, which is exactly what one can now do with a computer based sequencer, but the natural way to do it with soft synths like DP is to have one (or maybe more?) instances of a synth for each midi track.
You're quite right about DP's MT mode being limited to playing one element per channel, and maybe the MT mode was included simply because it could be included, but I would suggest you don't try to get your head around it any more. There are too many other brilliant features to consider, all more mind boggling and all more worthwhile than getting four midi channels into one instance!
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b rock
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/13 18:33:21
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Everyone's points are well-taken here. I've taken that long route as well in making due with what was available. It wasn't much fun to configure then, but I was thrilled to have those options available, as I am now. Maybe it's time for me to weigh in. the fact is, who cares? Well, I may be the lone soldier in this, but I do. How about the ability to use key splits (either in your controller, or within DP/RP's Multisample window) to map out overlapping or isolated control over individual Elements? Or per-channel MIDI controller messages of any sort? Alternately, four distinct controllers. For example, a Trigger Finger for drums, a two-octave for bass lines, pads in your main controller, with a lead synth triggered by yet another controller. Controller key splits can transmit simultaneously over multiple MIDI channels, and some transmit hardware-based arpeggiators over individual channels. On the other end, DP/RP can receive these signals separated by MIDI channel, and the low overhead allows for multiple instances in multitimbral mode. Each Element in these can have it's own unique key split, producing a stunning complexity of sound results; thanks to multitimbral mode. And the spontaneity of live performance is retained. Sure, much of this can be accomplished with tedious editing, but as for myself, I'd rather just play. Just my $.02.
post edited by b rock - 2006/06/14 20:49:09
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René
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/13 20:04:11
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It seems like all of the main sounds that are in DPro take up more than one element, often all 4. So even with the "multitimbral" option set to on, You're limited to "elements", not the main patches.
I will play more with the elements, and see what I can do with them. When I go to load "elements", I only find a very few that ship with the product.
It seems to me that even if you can get 4 "elements" to play at one time, that the elements are much more limited than the full-fledged "sounds" in DPro.
This works like in most workstations. A sound can be composed of one element, two, three or four. Naturally, sounds composed of four elements are more complex than sounds using a single element. Most 'Dimension' sounds are made of several elements. That's also the case for the full woodwind stacks (i.e. flute, oboe and clarinet, etc.), and of the splits and layers. Single instruments, however, are usually made of one single element (i.e. drums, percussion, grooves, etc.). Dimension Pro is best used using a single instance for each instrument, regardless on how many MIDI tracks you use for it. However, I often use a single instance for four different drums and percussion sounds. Two instances will surely cover drums and percussion. I still think it would be nice to be able to control volume from the midi channel with DPro, like with Sampletank. You can control volume (and Expression) from the MIDI channel as you do with any instrument. When you set DP as multitimbral, each channel (1-4) keeps its own set of MIDI controls. -René
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Skyline In The Office
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/29 09:58:08
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As someone who bought Hypersonic 2 and been very disappointed (in its clunky behaviour as a Sonar plugin), can I just clarify some points about Dimension Pro - I'm teetering on the edge of buying..
- One DimPro instance loads four elements. These elements are like the 'tones' in my Roland XP50 that combine to make a patch, and using all four elements in DimPro makes for the most 'authentic' sounding patch. True?
- If I have, say, six instruments on six midi tracks in Sonar I would have to fire up six separate instances of DimPro (if I want to keep all four tones available for each instance/patch). If I understand a comment of Rene's, this is no sweat DAW resource-wise. But doesn't it clutter the Sonar screen up a bit?
- Is DimPro launched in Sonar as a DXi or VST soft synth plugin?
- I use the WDM drivers in Sonar. Does this make any difference?
- Does DimPro operate in stand alone mode, e.g. for using with Midi Yoke to receive output from a product like Band In A Box?
Many thanks!
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René
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/29 10:17:06
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- One DimPro instance loads four elements. These elements are like the 'tones' in my Roland XP50 that combine to make a patch, and using all four elements in DimPro makes for the most 'authentic' sounding patch. True? I wouldn't say 'authentic'. Unlike the XP-50, Dimension Pro allows for unlimited velocity/keyboard splits and layers within one element. The factory sfz multisamples are composed of many samples. A single 1st violins patch would be as big as the whole XP-50 memory. If you check the Garritan Pocket Orchestra patches, for instance, you'll see that most of those are single-element patches and sound very authentic. Actually, the patches which are using two, three or even four elements are mostly Dimensions, or 'out of this world' textures. They're mostly stacks of moving elements with static elements, mapped in velocity and keyboard using the gui and combining different effects in each sound, etc. - If I have, say, six instruments on six midi tracks in Sonar I would have to fire up six separate instances of DimPro (if I want to keep all four tones available for each instance/patch). If I understand a comment of Rene's, this is no sweat DAW resource-wise. But doesn't it clutter the Sonar screen up a bit? Well, only if you keep all editors open. That's the price of keeping total editing abilities in each instance of Dimension Pro at all times. If you don't need this editing capabilities, you can just close the editors and use MIDI Learn or automation to handle those parameters you do need to change. - Is DimPro launched in Sonar as a DXi or VST soft synth plugin? Either. - I use the WDM drivers in Sonar. Does this make any difference? No. - Does DimPro operate in stand alone mode, e.g. for using with Midi Yoke to receive output from a product like Band In A Box? No, it doesn't, it works in plug-in mode only. You can use any host (there're even free hosts like savihost or minihost) to host DP in order to do that though. -René
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Skyline In The Office
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/29 10:26:09
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-
...Well, only if you keep all editors open. That's the price of keeping total editing abilities in each instance of Dimension Pro at all times. If you don't need this editing capabilities, you can just close the editors and use MIDI Learn or automation to handle those parameters you do need to change. Many thanks, René! I'm a dyed-in-the-wool preset guy, (probably because I'm a guitarist and not a keyboard player..  ) so as I understand it I would always be keeping the editors closed, right? What's MIDI learn exactly? John
post edited by Skyline In The Office - 2006/06/29 10:36:51
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lawapa
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RE: Dimension Pro - Multitimbral is a Mystery
2006/06/29 21:36:25
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Many features in the gui and hidden can be manipulated with midi cc#'s either with an external controller or with in using the controllers view. You can fully automate your sound using Dpro or you can simply play the patch as is. To midi learn ANY KNOB JUST RIGHT CLICK IT AND move the slider in your controller to set.
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