Nathan Knight
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Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
For the longest time I've used 2 DAWs in my studio, the main one for Sonar (as I run up to 60 tracks of audio and 30'ish plugins) and the 2nd one for GigaStudio (and other soft synths) which I'd control by MIDIoverLAN from the Sonar box. My question is this: I've heard a lot of good stuff about Dimension.--Is it an all around synth?--Do people use only Dimension for producing? Then there's lots of talk about other synths like Z3TA+, Rhino, etc. I'm starting to wonder if it's really worth the hassle of converting all my Akai sample CDs (again...since I'm setting up new computers right now) to Giga format and using GigaStudio to play my samples back...when there are so many nice synths around.
Soft synths seem to take so much less computer resources (whereas GigaStudio likes having its own computer to run on). I just thought I'd fish around for some comments here or people who have dropped the software samplers (GS, Kontakt, etc.) to embrace the soft synths more. And if so, which soft synths? How many does P5V2 come with?
Thanks in advance,
Nathan
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techead
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/21 22:05:55
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Hi Nathan,
You run more complex projects than I do based on your plugin and track count that you cited. I have both SONAR and Project5 as well but use them for smaller projects--mostly MIDI sequences.
I don't use GigaSampler so I really don't know much about it.
Project5 comes with the DS864 which is a general sampler, Velocity which is a drum sampler, and Cyclone which is a loop/groove sampler. It also has PSYNII which is a subtractive synth, Roland Groovesynth which is a fixed-set sample playback synth, nPulse which is an analog-style drum synth. Then the big monster Dimension which is a synthesizer which supports three styles of synthesis (sample playback, wavetable oscillator, and waveguide).
There is an excellent amount of sample content and good presets supplied for the synths as well.
In general, I have found that the synthesizers (Dimension, PSYNII, nPulse) require more CPU power than the samplers (Velocity and DS864), but the samplers may require more RAM than the synthesizers.
So far I have used the samplers more than anything in my projects...but I really like all of Project5's synthesizers and anticipate using all of them.
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wrench45us
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/21 22:14:31
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i just spent about a week fooling with Kontakt2 and as much as I like Dimension, at this stage in its history and Kontakts 'maturity as a product -- Kontakt is capable of much more 'realism' at this stage
when Kontakt ventures into evolving or motion pads it converges with Dimension in some ways. The pianos and e-pianos on Dimension are very useful, but I don't think they really touch the 'clarity' or 'shaping' that something like Kontakt 2 or Giga sampler can do.
Much of which is probably dependent on the quality and mapping of the samples involved.
Dimension is a wonderful addition to P5. And it's only in its infancy. I expect the whole sfz editing world will be there very soon.
others, of course may disagree
no disrespect to rgc audio or Cakewalk --
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Nathan Knight
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 03:31:39
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Thanks for those bits of information. That's quite a few synths P5 comes with. But in wrench45us's opinion the samples of Kontakt have a more realistic sound. Which samples do you use? I have a ton of Akai/Giga sample CDs...that's why I use GigaStudio. I wonder if Live has synths as well...and if so are they nearly as good (or as many) as P5 has? If people rewire P5 into Live...how do they use them together? Someone on this forum a couple weeks ago told me they do that.
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techead
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 05:48:52
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I think Mikey maybe one who is doing Project5 and Live rewired together??? My software library for video and music is exclusively Cakewalk and Sony when it comes to host environments (SONAR, Project5, Vegas, SoundForge, CD Architect) so I can offer no comparison points for Live, Reason, FL Studio, or any other environments.
For playing Giga files (I have very few samples in this format--they're just too big in my opinion) I have purchased the full version of VSampler plus I use soundfonts and .wav samples in all the other sample players from Project5.
Most of the sample content I use is what came with Project5 V1, Project V2, each SONAR version, and with the Sony products, and some items that I have sampled myself with my soundcard. The rest are free downloads I've selected from the Internet. I just can't comment about what wrench said about Kontact being more reaslistic sounding to him because I don't use that sample player. I am very satisified with what came with Project5 plus the VSampler.
I will say, though, that there is far more programming depth in this combination of software samplers and softsynths than anything I had ever encountered in the hardware synths/samplers and all of these software samplers sound more realistic to me than any hardware synth/sampler I have used.
However, I think all of these samplers and softsynths are so programmable that given enough time to learn how to program them and play them and given the proper mix context and high quality sample sets or synth programs ANY of them can sound very convincing. I don't think that Kontact--or any particular product for that matter--has so much more capability that it is more realistic than most any other product in its category.
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wrench45us
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 09:01:24
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Live, as noted many places has a pretty lousy midi editing features. It's really a live audio layering host for performance and composition.
the following is again my opinion
aside from Dimension, which is in a class by itself, it's my opinion that the synths included in P5 are designed to give a full range of capability, but are not exactly world class. I would consider them starter synths. That said, talented, creative people can do a great deal with starter synths. But on the whole they do not shine particularly brighter than many freely available vst instruments.
Reason, FLStudio and Project 5 share a market for an entry level all-in-one music production kit. That said I much prefer the hosting features of P5 to anything else available. I've been a loyal supporter since v 1.0, but I am also on the record as saying that DS864 is a pretty mediocre sampler. I was surprised when P5 v2 contiuned to ship with DS864. Not all samplers can render samples equally well -- try a quality soundfont in DS864 and in rgc:audio's free sfz sampler and there's a distinct difference. There's an uncanny level of extra noise going on in DS864. (which can work in some situations, but it's not part of the sample, it's in the engine)
Kontakt2 has also been criticized for some shortcomings in its basic sound engine, but they're not nearly so easily heard. With Dimension's ability to layer samples with extensive envelope control and Kontakt2's incorporating convolution reverb and an extendible scripting language, samplers are really evolving.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 09:16:43
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This partly depends on how wide of a range of sounds you need at any given time. Personally, if it were me, I'd use both (Giga and Dimension). I always like to have as many high quality sounds at my fingertips as possible. 
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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jardim do mar
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 09:21:20
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I always like to have as many high quality sounds at my fingertips as possible ,,, ya know,,, brandon ,,, does that go the same ,,,as ya know,,,, for 'women,,,,,,,  ,,, lol,,,men,,,,, nathan Thanks in advance ,,, oh my,,, nathan,,, you know ,,,you want to,,,,,,, explore,,,,,,,,,,,, edit,
post edited by jardim do mar - 2005/08/22 09:28:30
marcella And Remember,,,,One thing at a Time.....
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René
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 09:21:28
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I've been a Gigastudio user (and fan) since the old days of Gigasampler back in the early nineties. That said, I'm really sad to say that Tascam is losing the battle in every part of the field. Kontakt 2 has just too many good corners to be ignored, even when the interface remains... kontaktish. K2 is a great product, and if what you're after is either getting new libraries or converting your old ones, and given that you don't mind to pay the $500+ bill, Kontakt is the weapon that will grant you the most massive amount of sound destruction.
The sound quality 'in abstract', meaning the quality of the engine itself, is very different between two. Gigastudio has a much more refined engine than Kontakt (or the whole line of Kontakt Players), with much better sound quality. However, modern libraries compensate that using a mega-huge-hyper-extreme amount of samples. That huge amount requires something called 'disk streaming': the samples are loaded into memory from disk and played realtime.
Disk-streaming is great for most studio uses, but it's not that great for live performance. As you mentioned you're a GS user, then you do know that it will want its own computer to run smooth. Also, you might have had any hard disk broken in the last few years. I would say that it's not a smart option to rely in a disk-streaming solution when performing live.
Dimension doesn't stream from disk (it's part of P5, aimed to 'performance composition'), so loading such a huge libraries like you load in Kontakt or GS is not practical. Therefore, the 'realism' of the sample sets isn't the same: Dimension biggest piano is like 300Mb, while there're 2Gb pianos in the market. On the other hand, there're many scenarios where you don't need, or can't percieve the difference, due you're 'just' composing, or constructing a concept. In that arena, I think Dimension shines. HTH.
-René
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 09:29:11
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ORIGINAL: jardim do mar
I always like to have as many high quality sounds at my fingertips as possible ,,, ya know,,, brandon ,,, does that go the same ,,,as ya know,,,, for 'women,,,,,,,,,, lol,,,men,,,,,
In my case, it would be women.  However I 'm recently engaged so my soft synth list is about to be scaled back drasictally 
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2005/08/22 09:38:12
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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wrench45us
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 10:02:26
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i think Rene's post really clarifies the current situation
certainly much better than my previous attempts
sample size and synth functional fit being the two major areas my limited perception had missed
i was lucky to pick up Kontakt2 by way of NI's Komplete package deals
i don't expect such a deal to ever come my way again -- which really fits in with the other theme in the discussion -- as many high quality sounds at fingertips as possible -- old married man that I am other considerations are out of play
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fac
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 10:38:45
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Soft synths seem to take so much less computer resources (whereas GigaStudio likes having its own computer to run on). I'm going to burst your bubble here. Many softsynths are pretty heavy on the CPU, which means you can only run a small amount of them in a good hefty computer. My Athlon 2400+ laptop can handle around 10-15 synths, but it really depends on which ones. I can see why you need a dedicated computer for Giga if you're going to do disk streaming and lots of tweaking, but sample-playback by itself is pretty efficient. Softsynths like z3ta+ or Rhino, however, do a lot of DSP processing and will make your CPU suffer, so you might want to keep that second PC around.
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wrench45us
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 11:03:24
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Soft synths seem to take so much less computer resources (whereas GigaStudio likes having its own computer to run on). unless by resources he meant only memory and not cpu, in which case... samplers: generally high memory, high I/O performance required (disk streaming), low cpu usage soft synths: very low memory usage, low I/O performance, relatively high cpu usage
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fac
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 11:18:34
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ORIGINAL: wrench45us
samplers: generally high memory, high I/O performance required (disk streaming), low cpu usage
soft synths: very low memory usage, low I/O performance, relatively high cpu usage
Thanks, wrench. I need to learn to say things with fewer words.
post edited by fac - 2005/08/22 11:25:34
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wrench45us
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 11:23:08
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nonsense,
i was just being a smart ass
i have to document and plan unit tests today (all week actually) so I'm looking for any oppotunity for distraction
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Nathan Knight
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 15:50:52
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if it were me, I'd use both (Giga and Dimension). I always like to have as many high quality sounds at my fingertips as possible. Hey man...you're the guy that did the demo of P5V2 at (NAMM?)...that's what got me interested in P5. I wouldn't have known it was you unless I clicked on your web site and saw your picture. I'm still learning what P5 can do and how to use it...that video helped put skin on the whole idea for me. I wish there were more video demos of how people use it...whether as a master application, or in conjunction with other software. www.nathanknight.com Regards, Nathan
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Nathan Knight
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/22 15:53:39
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,,, oh my,,, nathan,,, you know ,,,you want to,,,,,,, explore,,,,,,,,,,,,
edit, Voce e Brasileira?
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/23 01:56:24
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ORIGINAL: Nathan Knight
if it were me, I'd use both (Giga and Dimension). I always like to have as many high quality sounds at my fingertips as possible. Hey man...you're the guy that did the demo of P5V2 at (NAMM?)...that's what got me interested in P5. I wouldn't have known it was you unless I clicked on your web site and saw your picture. I'm still learning what P5 can do and how to use it...that video helped put skin on the whole idea for me. I wish there were more video demos of how people use it...whether as a master application, or in conjunction with other software.
www.nathanknight.com
Regards,
Nathan
Yup that was me (actually at Musikmesse in Germany). I'm glad the video was helpful to you. It does indeed help to actually see someone use something rather than just reading about it from a technical standpoint. So... I actually plan on creating some Project5 Version 2 videos sometime in October (after AES in NYC). I wish I could do them sooner but my schedule just doesn't allow for it. And to all: Now that we are discussing it, what aspects do you think these videos should encompass. I was definitely thinking Groove Matrix triggering and ways in which it can be used for composition and performance. I was also thinking a nice Dimension sound demo would be helpful to those who don't already have it. Definitely an ARP tutorial with performance ideas. Probably Device Chains and SONAR integration would be good subjects... Any thoughts from you guys? What do you want to see personally? What would be helpful to prosepctive and/or new users?
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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LabDog
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/23 09:30:35
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Any thoughts from you guys? What do you want to see personally? What would be helpful to prospective and/or new users?
Nifty and Awesome Groove Matrix tricks, things such as Triggering/Retriggering, Arranging a song, and/or Remixing songs, all in the Groove Matrix. An explanation on performing complex mixes in P5II, who needs a mixer! Advanced Automation Techniques Exposing little known, or hidden P5II components Setting up device chains Excellent Ideas for using Controllers in P5 version 2 such as the use of multiple controllers Invited guest to give tips on song building in P5II for various genres A "How'd they do that?" section tricks to pulling off things heard in today's music, inside P5II, like reversals (playing a track backwards), Mad Flamming tricks, Munchinizing and/or Screwing Vocals... Possibilities of creating entire songs in P5, vocals and all! Rewire & Project 5 version2 Need more ideas  , I've got much more!!! There really should be a P5 Video Magazine,(ofcourse, written sections as well), we should make one, these sorts of things really should be on-going... LabDog
post edited by LabDog - 2005/08/23 10:04:06
I am creativity's Master, I'll Be In the Lab, creating, If You Need Me
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dgkenney
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/23 11:21:11
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ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
I was definitely thinking Groove Matrix triggering and ways in which it can be used for composition and performance.
an ARP tutorial with performance ideas.
Probably Device Chains and SONAR integration would be good subjects...
These seem right on target and a good starting place for me. Dan
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wrench45us
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/23 11:45:55
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what I think a lot of newcomers to music production might like is a simple 3 or 4 minutes on splitting a drum synth into kick, snare and hats channels and applying compresssion, reverb, flanging to the appropriate channels to approach some level of 'pro' sound
nothing quite lifts up a track like great sounding percussion
it's easy simple and listening to before and after can make for a pretty dramatic presentation -- (just don't give any secrets away)
other little things - like adding chorus to a string section
basic track automation for volume levels, cross fades and end fades
again easy, simple, but can add a lot
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dgkenney
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/23 13:00:20
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ORIGINAL: dgkenney
ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
I was definitely thinking Groove Matrix triggering and ways in which it can be used for composition and performance.
an ARP tutorial with performance ideas.
Probably Device Chains and SONAR integration would be good subjects...
These seem right on target and a good starting place for me.
Dan
Just thought of another! A video demo of using multi-timbral synths using different instruments on multiple track layers with multiple outs - especially highlighting which fxs/arps/splits can be discrete vs: "all or nothing." I know that b rock among others have explained this a number of times but I just don't get it. Probably has to do with my preconceived notions of what the workflow should be rather than what it is. Anyway, seeing it demoed would be a great help to me. Dan
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b rock
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/23 17:15:27
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Definitely an ARP tutorial with performance ideas. Probably Device Chains ... Absolutely. This was the sleeper hit for me personally with V2. I can tell you that most people reading the feature set say, " Oh. Another arpeggiator. Just great." It needs to be demonstrated just how complex of a tool this is; especially with MIDI Remote Control, Layers, per-track variations, and pattern input modulated by Shapes. The live performance uses alone just keep growing & expanding for me, and I'm generally not an arp user. This one's different. Sidebar: Brandon, when are you going to cave in and let us in on creating our own .arp files, while hacking the Shapes list? I'll trade ya' ... I like everyone's ideas so far, and Labdog has some exceptional topics listed. I can add some more of my own ideas, but I imagine you'll have a difficult enough time trimming down to fit some short video clips as it is. I would heed Jan's advice, though: don't give away the store. Then we're going to get all manner of riff-raff here (and you know that we'll have to make them feel welcome). "Anything less would be uncivilized." The problem is that those n'eer-do-wells and johnny-come-latelys will all have a firm groundiing in really professional applications. You know; unlike Project5, and apps with a dongle. Then we'll have to sit through yet another round of how X is so much better than P5 [72%-81.57% better], and how it's all done differently. I'm afraid that if we hear one more time how good it is on the outside, we (as P5 users) might start to develop a superiority complex.
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techead
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/23 18:38:16
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ORIGINAL: b rock
I'm afraid that if we hear one more time how good it is on the outside, we (as P5 users) might start to develop a superiority complex.
Is it bad to have a superiority complex when using superior software?
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b rock
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/23 19:03:11
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Is it bad to have a superiority complex when using superior software? No. We're among friends here. But it is bad to flaunt it openly; we've got more class than that. <g>
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dgkenney
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/23 19:25:51
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ORIGINAL: b rock
The problem is that those n'eer-do-wells and johnny-come-latelys will all have a firm groundiing in really professional applications.
Geez...I hope that wasn't aimed at me. I really don't fit into either of those categories. All right..maybe a n'eer-come-lately but I like to think of myself as more of a johnny-do-wah-diddy-diddy-dum-diddy-do. Dan
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b rock
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/23 19:41:19
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Geez...I hope that wasn't aimed at me. Depends. Show us your dongle. Really, Daniel; no one targeted specifically. Just having a little fun here, at the expense of non-Fivers. Besides, you're one of the homeboys/girls here, with a lot of valuable input. I should talk: I came from Cubase before Sonar, use Acid extensively [ insert joke here], lots of (now) Sony stuff, and anything else I can get my hands on and use as a means to an end. I even have one hardware foot stuck in half of the Steinberg/Yamaha Alliance. Oh, thanks for the memory jog. I need to hunt down an upgrade to Voyetra's Digital Orchestrator. It'd be nice if I could launch it without the DOS prompt. Edit: I always like to have as many high quality sounds at my fingertips as possible,,, ya know,,, brandon ,,, does that go the same ,,,as ya know,,,, for 'women,,,,,,, As you know, I'm a bit of a collector myself. Considering the times, make sure that your favorite soft- and hard-synths have been tightly wrapped by the host adapter. One bad bit of code, and BLAMMO!: Permanently Excluded and uninstalled. That should keep you tweaked and running efficiently until that all-in-one application of your dreams comes your way (if ever).
post edited by b rock - 2005/08/23 20:01:30
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Dimension (& soft synths) vs GigaStudio (& samplers)
2005/08/24 03:25:23
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Hey thanks for all the excellent ideas everyone! I've collected these into a document and will refer to it when I get to creating the videos. Thanks again.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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