Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me...

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cityrat
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2006/03/08 11:47:51 (permalink)

Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me...

Since there isn't a demo (besides the audio presets which I have listened to) for Rapture - can someone please sumarize the differences?

The way I see it is Rapture has 6 elements, Dimension has 4. Rapture has step sequencer. Whatever that does - can someone please explain to me what type of sounds I can make with the step sequencer that I can't in Dimension? Is that the more "arpy" types of sounds? What about "ring modulation"?

Also aside from the 8 gig sample size library that comes with Dimension (pro) why isn't Rapture generally "better" and / or more advanced? What can I do in Dimension I can't do in Rapture?(that is, if I buy it!)

Sorry if these questions are off base - I certainly LOVE Dimension Pro and am thinking of getting Rapture but what's the big diff? I just keep hearing Dimesion is better at "more realistic" (??) while Rapture has capabilities for more "electronic" (??). I'm certainly not a synth expert (as it shows).

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    AT
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 12:31:52 (permalink)
    Rapture is more of a synth while Dimension is more of a sampler.

    A step sequencer is another modifier - like an lfo or envelope generator. Instead of either of the latter, you draw points on a block-like diagram (I know there is a pic somewhere) and assign the levels as a controller for pitch, filter, pan etc. There is also a smooth function that rounds out the difference in levels. They work much like analog sequencers, which usually controlled one element of a synth (such as the pitch). Listen to some old Tangerine Dream (esp. the Sorceror soundtrack) or any number of snyth songs from the 80's to hear it in action.

    Dim Pro has a much bigger library - pianos, saxes, guitars and other acoustic samples. If you are more into doing pop/rock/jazz/classical music it would probably be the way to go if you don't already have a high-class sampler.

    If you do more electronic music look at Rapture. It is more synthy but I find it easier (or maybe just quicker) to program than Z3TA+, with which it shares many aspects.

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
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    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
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    #2
    cityrat
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 12:49:42 (permalink)
    AT - thanks. But still, aside from the step seq and the extra elements, why cant I do the same things in both? Especially if I have Rapture, what couldnt I do it it that I could do in Dimension (sample library aside)?

    To me - Rapture seems like the more advanced / flexible (again - this is w/o the huge library of Dimension). Am I missing something?


    All in all, I quess it really comes down to you are buying the complete package (samples and synth). So then I see there is a big diff. Still, if there was a way to convert Dimension progs to Rapture progs, wouldnt that be cool - although potentially bad for Dimension?
    #3
    AT
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 13:05:09 (permalink)
    You can do both - Rapture will load Dimension samples (both use the sfz format but will load other formats). But it doesn't come with the samples. If you want some decent pianos you'll have to buy them or sample them yourself. That is either a lot of money or time.

    Other than the programs and sample set, Rapture is the better synth. But the sample set is a big thing, not to mention the programming. It comes down to what kind of music you want to do.

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
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    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
    #4
    René
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 15:41:56 (permalink)
    AT - thanks. But still, aside from the step seq and the extra elements, why cant I do the same things in both? Especially if I have Rapture, what couldnt I do it it that I could do in Dimension (sample library aside)?


    The main difference between Rapture and Dimension Pro is the sounds they're aimed to produce. Rapture is all about totally synthetic sounds, while Dimension Pro is about both realistic and synthetic-using-realistic-components. In Dimension Pro you'll find, for instance, a superbly sounding string section and piano, but also you'll find some weird dimension program using strings and piano elements. Rapture creates all the sounds based in single-cycle wavetable synthesis, so you won't find anything realistic on it.

    The engines have been tweaked to achieve that duality. Rapture has multiple oscillators per element, ring modulation, dual filters, seven step generators per element controlling pitch, cutoff x2, reso x2, pan and amplitude (total 42 step gens per program), element ring modulation, more global insert effects. Dimension Pro offers bus send effects per element, drag-and-drop to host of MIDI patterns for synchronized loops, REX/RCY/RX2 support. Also, parameter ranges in each has been adjusted for the most common range in both types of synthesis.

    Which one is better depends on your particular music style and what kind of sounds you're after.

    -René
    #5
    lost sheep
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 15:45:13 (permalink)
    Hey Ratty, I know exactly where you're coming from on this. I have the same issues even with some synth experience. I maintain Rapture is DimPro II without the DimPro sample library and it wouldn't surprise me if that library was offered to Rapture users in the future.

    Anyway these two are being marketed to different sectors as described by AT. Sample users (DimPro) and Synth users (Rapture). If you are new to synth programming then Rapture may just be an expensive set of presets. I am reasonably sure it's one hell of a synth but I'm not so sure it's easy to program and I'm definately not paying anywhere near list price for it!

    P5 is very capable in the automation department, it is quite capable of duplicating most of what you might do in Rapture with the step sequencer. A good basic synth and a rich FX plug you could be amused for hours just exploring P5. People over at P5 used to rave about the bundled PsynII, now it's all about the latest release. PsynII is still very capable of producing good sounds; go play with it and learn about programing what you've got until Rapture drops to a more realistic price and you hear what other's have to say about it.

    Check this link on the Project 5 forum http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=722484 for what can be achieved with a cheap simple 80's emulation VST synth and a bit of automation.
    #6
    AT
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 15:45:32 (permalink)
    There it is. Rene' in his icon has the hard to explain in words step sequencer.

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
     
    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
    #7
    cityrat
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 15:57:44 (permalink)
    Thanks for all the great replys. Rene' - that especially helped to know the differences in the engine and the more technical aspects. I was starting to thing that Rapture was just Dim with +2 elements and a step generator but it does sound like its significantly different.

    I'm new to the softsynths but have been tweaking DX7s, K2000's and my SY77 for years so maybe its just a change in thinking. As for types of music - well, I actually find that its usually a combination of realistic with the "odd" sounds (remember I have a SY77 ) that give me the best overall feel for what I'm trying (usually not very well!) to accomplish.

    It seems to me now that they are different beasts - maybe me initial trepediation is the fact that they look so darn alike (this is probably actually a good thing from a usability standpoint).



    #8
    cityrat
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 16:24:51 (permalink)
    Well - I guess I'll have to let you know how it all works out. I'll be comparing my Diminesion Pro with my copy of RAPTURE I just ordered from Sweetwater.

    BTW - I finally focused on the DSP section of Rapture - oh. Yeah. Guess it is a different animal. \

    Figured Im wasting more time $$ and energy worring about it than the $ I might save in the furture so I said what the hell....
    #9
    Rick McNab
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 18:09:30 (permalink)
    Horses for courses (I find myself saying that alot lately). If nothing else, the focus of the presets and the programmers behind them could make the difference. Personally, although I need the bread and butter sample set, I'm a synth lover at heart. So even though I hear some cool synthy type sounds from Dim Pro, nonetheless Rapture is totally targeted at that market. So I expect the presets, which of course are also starting points for my own sounds, will be much closer to what I'm looking for.

    Actually, and I realize this won't happen for months, if at all, a Rapture/DimPro bundle would be t..ts. Say for around $350 or so.
    #10
    cityrat
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 18:28:17 (permalink)
    Rick - I hear you. I like the Dimension Pro "bread and butter samples" but really have the lust for synth sounds. I guess if Rapture had been released before Dimension I might have just stuck with Rapture! Those crafty marketing people... Oh well, I now will have 8 gig of sfz files for DP and RAPT. I expect to be occupied for quite awhile.


    Rene' why is it every time you answer one of my posts I go out and spend money?! Are you using some kind of secret sfz mind control or what???
    post edited by cityrat - 2006/03/08 18:33:46
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    Rick McNab
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 18:37:11 (permalink)
    With Dim Pro and Rapture you are going to have a SMOKIN' pallete of color. And you will have a consistent GUI and sampes transferable between instruments. Very cool. Kind of like the Microsoft Office suite, the Adobe suite, and now NI is pushing this "KORE" thing to integrate all of their instruments into a standard interface (they claim it's for ALL instruments, but we'll have to see. I bet it will work much better with their stuff, and I'd much rather grab DimPro and Rapture than head over to their world).

    If I were going to drop a grand on softys, DimPro and Rapture would be my first stops, then a couple of drum plugs, say GURU and Toontracks EZ Drummer. And maybe Stylus RMX. The other more boutique synths like Fab Filter and Prohpet V are on my radar, but now that I've been enlightened to the fatness of Rapture, I'd rather stick with one common interface and a community of eager users who are willing to share info.
    #12
    cityrat
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 19:58:20 (permalink)
    consistent GUI and sampes transferable between instruments


    That was a heavy plus for buying Rapture (besides the sounds of course - I really liked the demos). I hope to see this as a long term relationship - CW has been good to me with updates, service, copy protection, user community, getting ready for 64 bit, etc. Plus having used DP for awhile I'm really pleased with the UI, the sound, and the general approach: I think the sfz format is great and would like to see more develop from this but time will tell. The potential there is huge with the flexibility to just absolutely mangle sound.

    I've generally found that I'm tired of trying a bizzillion free or cheap (not necessarily bad) VSTs and want to just settle down with something that I can get into and learn all the ropes. Kinda like Im used to doing with hardware synths. Just my 0.02.
    post edited by cityrat - 2006/03/08 20:04:11
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    Rick McNab
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 20:41:14 (permalink)
    I agree. Smart move I think. Find one instrument and really get into it. This producer Daniel Lanois said in a book on Producers - (and I paraphrase) "Find one instrument and really learn it. From there will come a focus". I think that's real smart advice. That's what I'm looking to do. Instead of collecting a bunch of plugs haphazardly, I want to really get into Rapture. That's why I'm so glad I've now been convinced that it can sound really fat and vintage if programmed right.
    #14
    René
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/08 21:10:41 (permalink)
    P5 is very capable in the automation department, it is quite capable of duplicating most of what you might do in Rapture with the step sequencer.


    Well, if the concept is that stepgens are intended to 'give movement to a sound', then that's the only way we can think on automation playing a similar role. Now if we enter in the details:

    The Step Gens are per-layer. This means, you get a new step generator in each new layer, in each element for each new note you play. All those stepgens can be sync'ed to host tempo, and also can be unsync'ed. In both cases, you can get every voice having a different modulation depth, controlled by any modulation source.

    For instance, you can set the Filter 1 cutoff stepgen to 4 stages, for a very slow movement once you press a key. And then set the Filter 2 to a high resonance, and set the cutoff real high. Then use the Filter 2 cutoff stepgen to make a melody using the resonant filter peak.

    And then you can set the amount of depth in each stepgen, via velocity. Many of the 'Sequences' group in the factory patches use tricks like that, and none of those is possible using automation at all.


    Rene' why is it every time you answer one of my posts I go out and spend money?! Are you using some kind of secret sfz mind control or what???


    I'm sorry that those things cost money, I wish they wouldn't. On the other hand, they don't cost that much money for what you get, specially if you compare with the competition. And also, I'm totally positive that you will enjoy of many hours of fun with Rapture, which is what I call a good investment. Wait and see.


    -René

    #15
    lost sheep
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 03:23:51 (permalink)
    René: I've given up picking on Rapture. It will remain as DimPro II in my mind because it presents itself as the third generation evolution of Dimension. DimPro is amazing and one of my best buys, you have done a wonderful job developing it and promoting the .sfz format.

    I took my blinkers off last night and gave some thought to the poor people who don't own Project 5. Suddenly Rapture starts to look like P5LE in a VST. I maintain a lot but not all the tricks used in Rapture can be achieved with P5 by a competent user but at the end of the day Rapture will be judged by it's users and many of them won't have P5.
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    Rick McNab
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 04:08:22 (permalink)
    Good points. I'm looking at it as having the features I wanted in P5 without all of the extra baggage I didn't need - mainly the rhythmic arp/sequencing features. With a DAW that does pattern-based arranging, like the new Acid Pro 6, I think you'd have a system in some ways more flexible than P5 for around the same money.
    #17
    cityrat
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 07:03:20 (permalink)
    they don't cost that much money for what you get, specially if you compare with the competition



    Too true and worth every penny - esp for the quality (IMHO) of the sounds you get.
    #18
    naughtyhill
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 07:52:37 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: René
    and none of those is possible using automation at all.


    I would like to know why.

    If I have, four instances of DP in P5 that have the same .prog and I shut down 3 element per instance(1st #2,3 and 4 - 2nd #1,3 and 4 etc.) , wouldn't I be able to control all parameters with the groove matrix seperately using my midi controller with all 4 instances through midi input channel 1 (or 2 or 3 or etc.) ?

    Greetings,

    NaughT.

    #19
    René
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 08:31:34 (permalink)
    Sure. You can control all parameters for all elements in each instance separately. But still, if you play a chord, each note in the chord receives the same automation. As the step sequencers work at a layer level, each note in the chord gets its own step sequencer.

    So for instance, if you automate pitch, for instance, using automation, each note in the chord gets the same pitch change mechanics. Using the stepgens, each note follows its own stepgen, which can be modulated by any modulation source in depth, speed or smoothing.

    A quick example. I play a nice D-F#-A chord. I could have a random value applied to some stepgen parameters.
    Then the D note in the chord would get a 20% of modulation depth on cutoff, the F# note would get a 40% depth with 20% smooth on pitch, and the A note would get a 10% depth and 10% smooth on pan, that's for element 1, for instance.

    Then element 2 might have the note velocity controlling the stepgen depth on cutoff and another stepgen on resonance. The animation on those could be controlled by the velocity you used to play each note in the chord.

    And so on for the other elements. While you can control each parameter on each element via automation, you can't control each parameter -for each note- that way.


    -Rene
    #20
    b rock
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 16:43:57 (permalink)
    As the step sequencers work at a layer level, each note in the chord gets its own step sequencer.
    Let just say this: you *could* emulate layer-level control using automation. Either set up your's keyboard's O/S for a ton of splits and MIDI Channels, and/or use something like Project5 and its MIDI Input & Channel Filter per-track. Emphasis on *could*. It's going to take you forever.

    I don't know if these 'features' of Rapture's internal structure has been discussed enough: ease of implementation and fertile ground for experimentation. Anything that you can do in automation and MIDI Remote Control can be done more quickly and efficiently within Rapture itself. If you don't like the core sound, or the programming 'ergonomics', well, that's one thing. Get something else.

    But if you do, and you want to get up & running rapidly, using the internal StepGens, LFOs, EGs, X/Y, and the MIDI Matrix is the way to go. No contest. I'm a great fan of automation and generalized MRC, but if there's a better way, I'm taking it. I tend to experiment a lot , and I need to get to what I *hear* as fast as I can. Before another idea comes along and I get bogged down in a programming haze.

    Strike while the creative iron is hot. "Wow. I need a glissando trigger. Play in. Done. I think that i'll key it to release velocity. Hmm ... it'd be nice to reflect that in the cutoffs. Copy/Paste. Too much alike. Stagger the offsets, or reduce the depths. Now in a different Element, the opposite. Paste/Mirror. Sounds too tame. Randomize."

    Just one simple example. Sorry to disagree, Trevor, but (given an equal starting point), I'm going to have more done "at the end of the day" this way than a similar approach in automation. It's all right there in front of me, with no jumping through hoops.
    #21
    René
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 17:19:22 (permalink)
    Let just say this: you *could* emulate layer-level control using automation. Either set up your's keyboard's O/S for a ton of splits and MIDI Channels, and/or use something like Project5 and its MIDI Input & Channel Filter per-track. Emphasis on *could*. It's going to take you forever.


    Forever, and that would still give you a small fraction of the available options with the stepgens. Splits would force to tie a note with a desired behavior, which with the stepgens you can decide on-the-fly by many means, including the X-Y position, random, alternation or a combo between velocity and note number. It's not about workflow, it's about sound control.




    -René
    #22
    b rock
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 17:24:54 (permalink)
    a small fraction of the available options with the stepgens .. It's not about workflow, it's about sound control.
    Point taken. I do believe that we're on the same side of the fence here.
    #23
    cmusicmaker
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 17:28:45 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: René

    Let just say this: you *could* emulate layer-level control using automation. Either set up your's keyboard's O/S for a ton of splits and MIDI Channels, and/or use something like Project5 and its MIDI Input & Channel Filter per-track. Emphasis on *could*. It's going to take you forever.


    Forever, and that would still give you a small fraction of the available options with the stepgens. Splits would force to tie a note with a desired behavior, which with the stepgens you can decide on-the-fly by many means, including the X-Y position, random, alternation or a combo between velocity and note number. It's not about workflow, it's about sound control.




    -René




    He he. I tell ya...you really thought Rapture through Rene. I have seen a lot of potentially difficult questions come up not just in this thread but others as well. It has been interesting to see how you have tackled the questions. Thanks for taking the time to explain in detail. The information trail your posts leave is so useful. It does make a big difference having expert advice from the developer of a new product.

    Input from b rock and others has been very helpful as well. Rapture looks like your best work yet.

    #24
    naughtyhill
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 18:06:46 (permalink)
    I totally agree with B.

    I must compliment you René on this amazing new synth...
    Brock for his crazy, longwinded, annoying, totally cool, tutorials.
    ( hot damn do you know how much work i put into translating English to Dutch? It just makes my head spin.
    Cheap high though, doesn't cost me anything. )

    As for customer support, there's no comparison, no equal and nothing that comes near it IMO.

    F IN GREAT !!!

    latersssss,

    NaughT.

    #25
    lost sheep
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 18:38:35 (permalink)
    It's not about workflow, it's about sound control.

    You're just tellin me what I want to hear now to shut me up

    I'm still holding my position until I suffer a B Rock phat rapturous sonic attack... waiting... still waiting... I could get special menu soup quicker than this...
    #26
    René
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 19:10:40 (permalink)
    You're just tellin me what I want to hear now to shut me up


    No. The last thing I want on earth is a dissatisfied customer with anything I'm involved with. I'd rather have one customer less. Any day.

    I'm just trying to separate fact from fiction.



    -René
    #27
    Rick McNab
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 19:11:48 (permalink)
    So our mantra should be, "It's the StepGens, Stupid"
    #28
    naughtyhill
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 19:31:05 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Rick McNab

    So our mantra should be, "It's the StepGens, Stupid"


    It's about the whole package.

    #29
    lawapa
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    RE: Dimension vs Rapture - splain' to me... 2006/03/09 21:03:12 (permalink)
    It's about the whole package.

    For me that has always been the mantra. Taken as a whole Rapture will be the synth to beat ;)+) Now what will Rene come up with next?
    #30
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