Dithering question

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EightMilesHigh
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2009/07/08 13:31:16 (permalink)

Dithering question

I have a bit of a dilemma with my tracks. They are all recorded in 24 bit in Sonar 6, but I am importing them to a different device for mixdown. The device only allows me to mix down 8 tracks at 24 bit, or 16 tracks in 16 bit. The song I’m working on really could use 16 tracks. I can import them (as 24 bit) to a 16 bit song with 16 tracks, but then mixing down would crunch them into two tracks that are 16 bit. The question I have is, should I dither all the tracks I have down to 16 before I import them to a 16-bit song to mix them? Or, is this a waste of time and not going to make a difference? I’ve read that not dithering in a transition between 24 and 16 adds noise to the recording. Does this also apply to mixing several 24 bit tracks down to two 16 bit tracks?

The other option seems to be mixing down the drums to two tracks, guitars down to four tracks, lead and harmony vocals down to one track, keeping the bass on one track, and then mixing all of that down in 24 bit. I swear, though, that some of the nuances of the instruments are lost with this method. (The drums especially sound kind of squished in.)

I'm actually using the other device for mixing because of the excellent on board effects and compression on the device.
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    rstollen
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    RE: Dithering question 2009/07/08 15:42:51 (permalink)
    My first thought is that Sonar also has nice effects and compressors. Maybe reconsider and finish the project in Sonar.

    But If you're going to export your tracks for mixing on the other device, and they need to be 16-bit, then yes, you should dither when exporting the waves from Sonar.

    Otherwise, if you export 24-bit files, and the other device imports it and converts to 16-but it by just truncating those first eight bits, you will diminish the quality of the audio.

    As far as using fewer 24-bit tracks, or more 16-bit tracks, I think you will be the best judge of that.

    Good Luck.

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    ohhey
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    RE: Dithering question 2009/07/08 15:45:13 (permalink)
    This is ugly... you should never downgrade tracks from 24bit to 16bit. It's bad enough you have to do that once during the final stereo mastering but if you do it for each track the effect of it adds up, so it's not just worse it's worse times the number of tracks.

    One main issue here is what is going to happen during the mix. If the tracks always go down in volume for the mix you might not have as big a problem. The problem is when you boost the level of tracks during the mix. That's when the low volume nasty, low resolution 16bit stuff comes up to the forground. So if you must go down to 16bit tracks make sure the gain is as high as you can get it without going into the red. Don't take a 24bit track that is low level, convert it to 16bit like that and then boost it in the mix. Boost the level of the 24bit track to the max and then convert it to 16bit so you are more likely to have to reduce the level in the mix.

    Also, if you use compressors on tracks in the mix remember a compressor rides the level, so it will be boosting soft spots in the 16bit tracks and that's when the poor quality will show.
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    EightMilesHigh
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    RE: Dithering question 2009/07/08 18:02:29 (permalink)
    Based on what you’ve written, it almost seems as if I shouldn’t dither at all. Maybe mixing 24 bit tracks to 16 bit is not such a big deal.

    My device doesn't actually truncate the 24 bit tracks automatically upon import. It's just that when the 24 bit tracks are mixed to two tracks, those two tracks are 16 bit. The funny thing is, by not dithering at the early stage, I wouldn't have to dither at all because the mix would already be 16.

    Any thoughts?
    post edited by EightMilesHigh - 2009/07/08 18:19:10
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    CJaysMusic
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    RE: Dithering question 2009/07/08 18:16:07 (permalink)
    Based on what you’ve written, it almost seems as if I shouldn’t dither at all. Maybe mixing 24 bit tracks to 16 bit is not such a big deal.

    Yes you should dither, but only at the last step of your process, when you export your 24bit project to 16 bit so you can burn to CD.
    also, when ever you go down in bit depth, you need to dither, like form 24 to 16 or 32 to 24 or 32 to 16. That said, the only time you should go to to 16bit is when your done with your project
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    rstollen
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    RE: Dithering question 2009/07/08 18:36:02 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: EightMilesHigh
    The device only allows me to mix down 8 tracks at 24 bit, or 16 tracks in 16 bit...

    ...It's just that when the 24 bit tracks are mixed to two tracks, those two tracks are 16 bit.


    I'm in complete agreement with CJay and ohhey.

    My response was based on your possible need to use 16 tracks on your other device, which could only happen at 16-bits. Maybe with the responses you're getting, the nice effects and compression on this other device do not outweigh the problems with dithering in the early stages.

    Maybe consider finishing the project in Sonar again.


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    EightMilesHigh
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    RE: Dithering question 2009/07/08 19:47:25 (permalink)
    The tracks aren't brought down to 16 though when they are imported. I can import 24 bit tracks into the 16 tracks. It's only when those tracks are mixed down. Is this still bad?
    post edited by EightMilesHigh - 2009/07/08 20:00:13
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    rstollen
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    RE: Dithering question 2009/07/08 21:12:24 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: EightMilesHigh
    The device only allows me to mix down 8 tracks at 24 bit, or 16 tracks in 16 bit.

    Now I gotcha. The above statement made me think differently.

    No, that is not still bad. If you export 24-bit files from Sonar, and then they're imported and managed at 24-bit into the other device, then it's all good.
    post edited by rstollen - 2009/07/08 21:24:50

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    EightMilesHigh
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    RE: Dithering question 2009/07/08 22:23:48 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: rstollen
    Now I gotcha. The above statement made me think differently.

    No, that is not still bad. If you export 24-bit files from Sonar, and then they're imported and managed at 24-bit into the other device, then it's all good.


    Does everyone agree? rstollen understands what I mean, but just to clarify once again for everyone else, it is the resulting mix from the bounce (2 tracks left and right) that become 16 bit. The numerous imported tracks recorded in sonar that fill the 16 slots in the new device stay at 24. Thanks for the responses.
    post edited by EightMilesHigh - 2009/07/08 22:36:54
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    bitflipper
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    RE: Dithering question 2009/07/08 22:37:35 (permalink)
    I've stayed out of this conversation because I, too, was confused by your initial post. Thanks to rstollen's persistence, I now understand the question. And his answer is correct: keep it all at 24 bits until the final mix, and let your other device supply the dither at that time, when it's truncating to 16 bits. If you convert to 16-bit files before mixing, you'll be mixing 16-bit files and will not be able to enjoy the benefits of 24-bit summing.

    Personally, I'd just do the whole thing in SONAR and work in 32 bits.


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