Do I really need a firewire card?

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Splat
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2011/10/11 23:09:34 (permalink)

Do I really need a firewire card?

Quite happy with my internal firewire (VIA chipset), but I'm wondering if I can find performance improvement with a PCI-e card here (go TI and maybe not run on the 64 bit legacy drivers?).
 
Then again this could be a total waste of money as I do not experience any problems on legacy driver. 
 
This any good?
http://www.siig.com/it-products/firewire/firewire-400/pcie/dp-firewire-2-port-pcie.html 
  
 
Those running on TI - do you run legacy 64 bit driver?
My mindset is right now that the only reasoning to do this is that the Windows 64 bit 1394 Legacy driver may have more latency than a TI driver. However I cannot see how a TI chipset could be faster than a internal VIA in built chipset. Am I wrong?
 
Opinions folks..... will I really get a performance increase? Is there some great unknown I am not seeing?
Thanks!
 
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2011/10/11 23:31:30

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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    StarTekh
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/11 23:36:07 (permalink)
    im very supprised that your runnin OK with a via chipset, but hay

    a good TI firewire card pci is 20.00 the card you showd me is fine
    but overpriced.

    im sure Focusrite tells yout to use a TI chipset too !! but hay ..
    #2
    hockeyjx
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/11 23:43:42 (permalink)
    I run a TI Firewire800 card (all the store had at the time), but I can't remember what driver at this juncture.

    If you don't have problems, I'd say no to getting a new one. That said, I've always had some minute issue with a non-TI chipset ...even some things that took me a while to figure out. I NEVER have had that with a TI. So for the piece of mind, I say it IS something you should do!

    A small expense for GUARANTEED compatibility.



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    #3
    StarTekh
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/11 23:48:43 (permalink)
    Check the chipset and type of FireWire card. We recommend FireWire 400-only, non-combo (i.e. not with USB AND FireWire ports) cards with either a Texas Instruments or a VIA chipset, from a known brand manufacturer such as Belkin, Lacie or SIIG.
    Other chipsets and models also work, but the above specs will give the best results. For more information see FireWire compatibility article.
    #4
    RevBob
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 00:50:44 (permalink)
    I used a SIIG for firewire in my last PC and it was rock solid w/ 8 I/O. However, StarTekh is spot on, 400, non combo, with a TI chipset (which was what the SIIG I was using was). Depending on the hardware, you should check their compatibility lists for Firewire. It was 32bit though.

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    StarTekh
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 01:08:49 (permalink)
    bob: what motherboard are you running >?
    #6
    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 03:40:04 (permalink)
    If you're happy it rather begs the question why worry about changing?
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    thomasabarnes
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 04:51:55 (permalink)
    What draws attention to the firewire port being suspect to problems are problems of the type you were having when you were using the new driver for your audio interface. Things like the lagginess you experienced when arming a track, audio drop outs, and pops and clicks when playing back projects or recording.

    You have a pretty decent system. What is your ASIO performance like, now?

    If you can, for instance, run the Artist demos (ShiftyAndTheBigShots_LanceJones and Unified Tribe's Guilty) that come with X1 and SONAR 8, at a 64 samples buffer size (with little or no pops, clicks, or glitches,) you're doing pretty OK.

    What is the speed of your RAM? You may see some performance improvement, if your RAM is just 800 MHz speed and you upgrade to 1600 MHz speed.

    And/Or if you upgrade your CPU to a i7 970 or something higher, but if you're running projects with a good number of effects and tracks already at a 64 samples setting, you're already pretty good to go. If it aint broke don't fix it.

    But since you have installed an older driver for your audio interface and you don't have that latency you used to experience with the newer driver, it appears your experience is probably near optimal, already.

    Nonetheless, if you have the money to spare and you really value attempting to get your system running as good as you can, there is nothing wrong with getting a TI chipset firewire card to see if you get any improvement through it's use. That choice is yours. :) So if you get the TI card and don't see any improvement, don't blame us. :) Not all non-TI chipets are problematic. 

    Something you can do for a bit better recording experience and for tighter audio and MIDI sync in your projects is to manually adjust for record latency, if you want to. Here's a post that will help you to do that: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=1302373
    post edited by thomasabarnes - 2011/10/12 05:52:28


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    Splat
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 11:17:59 (permalink)
    > Things like the lagginess you experienced when arming a track, audio drop outs, and pops and clicks when playing back projects or recording.

    That's been nailed down to the Focusrite drivers (roll back cured it)....

    I'd like to reduce my latency basically. Machines a top performer, I think I've optimized the software as far as it will go. The firewire is the slowest link in the chain. X1 playback/record latency settings in preferences only perform well around 512/256 or so, I hear reports of faster speeds with Focusrite so wondering what can be done.

    Cheers


    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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    #9
    Splat
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 11:19:04 (permalink)
    Link looks interesting Thomas - thanks!

    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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    thomasabarnes
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 11:59:29 (permalink)

    X1 playback/record latency settings in preferences only perform well around 512/256
     
    What speed is your RAM? I would reckon it's 800 MHz DDR3 or faster. Do you have a separate HDD for projects and/or samples and are all your HDDs 7200rpm speed or faster?" And you do have your HDDs set to use DMA mode, if available?
     
     
    And if the reports you are getting from users with the same audio interface of running with lower latency settings are using the same audio interface driver as you are, and if you meet the specs above, the TI Chipest firewire card may be the key to stable performance at lower latency settings.
     
    If I were you, I'd try a TI chipset firewire card.
     
    The only other thing I can image that may be an obstacle is your motherboard. Do you know the brand and model? Are the chipset driver for your mobo up to date? Is there a motherboard BIOS update that may be relevant?
     
    Lastly, let me say I'm covering all this ground not to insinuate that your system is rudy-poot, but to make sure you did all you can with the hardware you have to optimize your system for music production.
    post edited by thomasabarnes - 2011/10/12 12:11:47


    "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant.

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    Jim Roseberry
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 12:10:32 (permalink)
    Those running on TI - do you run legacy 64 bit driver? My mindset is right now that the only reasoning to do this is that the Windows 64 bit 1394 Legacy driver may have more latency than a TI driver. However I cannot see how a TI chipset could be faster than a internal VIA in built chipset. Am I wrong?

     
    The issue isn't that TI is "faster"... but rather that most Firewire units won't have a compatibility issue with it.
     
    If your DAW can currently run substantial loads (glitch-free) at the smallest ASIO buffer sizes, moving to a TI unit will most likely not yield additional performance.
    If you're running a well-configured i7 based DAW... and you can't do this... I'd replace the Firewire controller with a quality TI chipset unit.
     
    Regarding "legacy" mode for the Firewire controller's driver:
    That depends solely on the audio interface's driver.
    Audio Interfaces that haven't had a recent driver update will most likely need to run in legacy mode (ie: Tascam FW1884).  Those that have had a recent driver update will likely have to be run in default mode (ie: Steinberg MR816).

    Best Regards,

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    Splat
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 13:00:33 (permalink)
    Thanks

    > Regarding "legacy" mode for the Firewire controller's driver: That depends solely on the audio interface's driver.


    Yup ... which is why I am asking for some real world feedback. Who isn't using legacy firewire driver.
    Legacy driver appears to work fine here for instance, but if I use the VIA drivers then one of my CPU's starts peaking. So who doesn't use legacy drivers (64 bit people only please) and what are you using... thanks.

    NB Thomas hardware and software config is all optimal, I'll probably have a go at a Ti-chipset for fun, but curioussto know what drivers people are running.

    Thanks.

    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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    thomasabarnes
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 14:56:58 (permalink)
    NB Thomas hardware and software config is all optimal,

     
    Forgive my ignorance, but what does "NB" mean?


    "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant.

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    gcolbert
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 20:10:33 (permalink)
    does "NB" mean?

    Note Bene (Note Well)
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    StarTekh
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 20:41:14 (permalink)
    alex: get  a proper TI card then you will know and pci is the way to go !!
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    AT
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/12 23:40:42 (permalink)
    Never  had a problem w/ 2 different via chips on several computers and different interfaces.  TI is prefered since there are less compatibilty issues.  But if you don't have a problem w/ the via, the TI isn't going to be any better.  Or that is my understanding.

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    Beagle
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/13 08:10:18 (permalink)
    when I got my MOTU I first tried the onboard firewire, which was VIA.  it had pops and clicks during playback.  they weren't bad, not constant, but annoying for sure.  I first bought a PCIe 1394A/B combo card and that was a mistake, it made things worse.
    then I bought a PCIe 1394A only card by SIIG based on advice I got in the forum.  unfortunately, all SIIG cards are NOT TI chipset and they put a sticker over the top of the chip so it's not easy to tell from looking at the picture.
    that card was also a problem.
    I finally bought a TI chipset (can't remember the manufacturer right now) 1394A card and things went smoothly!

    I couldn't be happier with it!

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    thomasabarnes
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/13 08:28:48 (permalink)
    Alex:

    If you can find a firewire card made by ADS, that should be a good quality TI chipset card.

    This one for instance, if you have an available PCI slot: http://www.guitarcenter.com/ADS-Tech-PYRO-PCI-64R2-Firewire-Card-703159-i1600344.gc


    "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant.

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    thomasabarnes
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/13 08:45:12 (permalink)
    Uh oh, the card in the link above is no longer available at Guitar Center.

    Here's one that appears to still be available and that works, though it's not made by ADS: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815103103


    "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant.

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    RevBob
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/13 12:42:50 (permalink)
    @StarTekh - sorry man don't remember what the board was in my old system but it was a Dell. I moved onto a Rain Computer's ION Studio with a Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R which has USB 2.0, 3.0, eSATA, and Firewire ports. The firewire on board had a T.I. TSB43AB23 chip set.
    While TI chips are not faster than other firewire, they are more stable. The difference is the TI has a specific timing/clock that syncs better with audio, and provides better sync with MTC and SMPTE which is why its prefered with A/V gear. Faster flow of information does not equal stable flow.
    Again, as mentioned above, unless your OS, drivers, and Bios work well together, and all of your devices/resources are not in conflict - then even the best gear will fail you.

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    WDI
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/13 15:12:20 (permalink)
    Built my friend a decent computer a couple years ago using an MSI I7 motherboard with onboard Firewire port. Nothing but glitches, dropouts and gui problems with a Fireface 800. Also, the oboard Firewire port would not let me monitor video playback from Adobe Premier. Added a PCI Firewire card with TI chipset completely solved the problem. Not sure if the onboard Firewire port had sharing conlicts or if it used a chipset that was not IEEE compliant which is usually the problem. If you are not having problems like that then I wouldn't worry about it.

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    adrian4u
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/13 15:52:04 (permalink)
    sometimes it takes time to get rid of it, frien of my has similar problem, he went thru 3 PCI FW cards but the problem was childish - IRQ conflict/sharing with graphic card.

    Solution was simple too - he just took card off computer then plugged it in - it sounds weird but it helped.

    Or if you have computer skills you can also set IRQs manually and set IRQ number of FW card lower than video card. It may help, but I can't guarantee.

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    Guitslinger
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    Re:Do I really need a firewire card? 2011/10/13 18:26:19 (permalink)
      As luck has it, my ASUS board came with the VIA 6308 chipset recommended by Focusrite, and so far I've not had as much as a hiccup from it with the ASIO buffer set to the lowest setting, with a latency of 5.4 ms. One minute of stereo audio recorded at 24/96 generates 33mb of data, which means each second a track is recording it generates .55mb of data; theoretically, if you were recording 100 stereo tracks simultaneously, the task should only require 55mbs of throughput for a firewire chipset to handle the load. A firewire card that can handle 100mbs of data flow should keep up with no problems. You're more likely to encounter a bottleneck with SATA drives than with a firewire chipset that is functioning properly.

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