The Maillard Reaction
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Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
After all these years I gave up and had to get some other DAWs to augment my Cakewalk DAW. After spending a month or so learning the new stuff I think I am starting to appreciate how many common experiences I have encountered. For example; the "Radius" branded technology that seems to underlie some of the "audio snap" (if you will) types of technology. I am finding that even when the snapping features have a slightly different implementation that you can discover similar quirks and unexpected behaviors that immediately seem familiar and ultimately, frustrating. It got me wondering. Is some patent holder making revenue while the DAW makers are prevented from making improvement to the technology? How about convolution and dynamic convolution effects like modeled rack gear and amp sims? Are companies "partnering" by selling each other snippets of technology like a dsp engine? Is that why everyone seems to be running in circles and making the same stuff over and over and over again? Have companies forgone the flexibility of owning their own technology and expedited the inclusion of *features* by partnering with each other in such a way that everyone is now trapped to sell what they are stuck with selling? I don't expect a guy like me could find the answer, but it occurs to me that industry insiders must know what's up. If a music tech periodical ferreted out this sort of info and wrote about it in a way that provided context to prospective owner operator customers like me, I'd probably buy a subscription. The availability of high quality outboard rack gear ballooned in the 1990's when any body became capable of implementing the best ideas from the late 1960's and early 1970's. It occurs to me that it will be nice to learn when the DAW patents will run out and the next wave of actual, tangible improvements can take place. Any industry insiders care to comment? :-) best regards, mike edit spelling
post edited by mike_mccue - 2013/08/13 11:59:32
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Moshkiae
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 10:06:25
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Hi,
I doubt that any "insiders" will comment on that.
It's like asking Apple to comment on Samsung! Or Microsoft!
The biggest issue is that the law allows for that crap to continue, and this where the Copyright Laws need to change a little ... and differentiate from the arts, for example. Software is a goner a few years later and that Copyright is tieing up precious resources.
I suppose that Craig will probably disagree here, as he would like to copyright his applet that shows him playing his guitar with his toe nails and they do not have compression! And he won't allow Cakewalk to use it, because they won't pay him a million dollahs!
As a wise Guy once stated from his holy chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... prevents you from becoming just another turkey in the middle of all the other turkeys!
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gswitz
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 10:54:21
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Patents have relatively short lives. Eighteen years at best I think. Let's talk about copyright!
If intellectual property didn't exist, we'd all be using a better version of Linux Ubuntu studio with Mickey Mouse as the mascot .
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 11:03:15
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Moshkiae
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 11:26:21
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gswitz Patents have relatively short lives. Eighteen years at best I think. Let's talk about copyright!
If intellectual property didn't exist, we'd all be using a better version of Linux Ubuntu studio with Mickey Mouse as the mascot . I'm afraid you didn't read the response! " and differentiate from the arts, for example" ... I would think that Mickey and his pals belong to the arts, not to your example! So go ahead and mix Apples and Oranges and I'm going to listen to Pink Floyd!
As a wise Guy once stated from his holy chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... prevents you from becoming just another turkey in the middle of all the other turkeys!
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quantumeffect
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 11:42:04
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A good patent is written such that the art (i.e., implementation) of the technology described in the patent is NOT easily circumvented. In other words, the patent author will attempt to write a broad patent that encompasses not only the specific example of the technology described BUT will also show (1) how the technology can be incorporated into or combined with existing technology (2) predict use and application both current and future. Writing a GOOD patent is very hard and usually very expensive. Major technology companies typically have more patent attorneys than they have product development people (I know from personal experience). It’s not so much that companies have (as Mike says) “forgone the flexibility of owning their own technology”, it is more likely there is a well written (good) patent in place protecting the technology of interest and … developing technology from the ground up that circumvents the said technology may not be technically feasible at this point in time or simply too expensive. This one is mine: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=3&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=6,242,679&OS=6,242,679&RS=6,242,679
Dave 8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson "His chops are too righteous." Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo
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Mooch4056
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 11:54:38
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Who has the patent on Bapu?
From Now On Call Me Conquistador!
Donate to the cure Bapu Foundation Email: mooch4056@gmail.com for more info
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 11:58:01
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Thanks for taking part in the discussion Dave!
Fascinating, to me at least, stuff.
all the best,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 12:00:37
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Mooch4056
Who has the patent on Bapu?
The Bouy Holding Company Ltd.?
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drewfx1
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 12:23:57
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mike_mccue
For example; the "Radius" branded technology that seems to underlie some of the "audio snap" (if you will) types of technology. I am finding that even when the snapping features have a slightly different implementation that you can discover similar quirks and unexpected behaviors that immediately seem familiar and ultimately, frustrating.
It got me wondering. Is some patent holder making revenue while the DAW makers are prevented from making improvement to the technology?
How about convolution and dynamic convolution effects like modeled rack gear and amp sims?
Are companies "partnering" by selling it each other snippets of technology like a dsp engine? Is that why everyone seems to be running in circles and making the same stuff over and over and over again?
Though there may be patents on some things, there's also theoretical limitations on what you can do. And if there are patents there, they may not come from the DAW world. And some of the licensed technology might be used as much for marketing reasons as technology reasons. For instance the difference between most noise-shaping dither algorithms with fancy, impressive sounding technical names is just, wait for it, a different EQ curve in the noise shaping filter and little or nothing else. And what do you want to make? It may not be terribly CPU efficient, but you can probably roll your own in Reaktor. 
The availability of high quality outboard rack gear ballooned in the 1990's when any body became capable of implementing the best ideas from the late 1960's and early 1970's.
Any industry insiders care to comment? :-)
Some might argue it ballooned because the project studio market created a demand that didn't exist before then. And some of those products were also based on relatively new, high quality IC's instead of discrete components.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Starise
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 12:38:49
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Acid loops, Rex loops, Rewire,VST all proprietary yet all shared by multiple DAWS. The deals behind the scenes are probably not the same. I'm no software writer but I think an audio engine is a different animal and isn't subject to strict stipulations like some other add-ons are. At least, there are more commonalities in development than differences depending on the platform. Many DAWs almost undoubtedly share very similar architectures because of the nature of the design.
When it comes to sims there seems to be a loophole that allows for a computer generated copy to be constructed because it really isn't making the equipment in any way similar or infringing on the original design and it is usually named something similar so you know what it is supposed to sound like but they can't name it that.
Cakewalk has partnered with Softube and more recently with a few others. The bloatware you sometimes get with a new DAW , like a cut down version of Guitar Rig is likely a kickback to Roland but I could be wrong.
I see Cakewalk doing both their own development on new ideas and partnering when it might be advantageous to them and the customer. I personally have no problem with those deals because it usually adds up to a better experience overall.
Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, , 3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface. CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 www.soundcloud.com/starise Twitter @Rodein
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 12:41:08
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With regard to dsp, I think the fanciest stuff is RnD'd by the military for scrounging details out of a seemingly confusing background. Then it seems as if bread and butter communications industries like the telephone industry picks up the ball and pushes things forward. I get the impression that music and sound for picture audio gets what's left.
With regards to the rack gear cpmments I made, you make a very good point. I happened to be thinking of all the discrete component clone type designs rather than the newer IC stuff, but your point is a good one.
Thanks for adding your thoughts.
best regards,
mike
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 13:10:40
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Intellectual property is intellectual property..... whether it is a song writer who pens a #1 hit song that becomes a timeless standard and provides for his long term retirement funding through royalties from the copyright or a computer geek who writes the code to software that solves the problems of the world or at least a small percentage of them in the world of recording software. Why should we deny the software coder the benefits of the work he did because "it's not art" as we determine art to be art? Progress is only held back to the extent that other "less capable" coders are not able to write code as well, and are unwilling to pay the copyright fees to acquire it.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2013/08/13 13:12:05
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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drewfx1
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 13:12:46
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mike_mccue
With regard to dsp, I think the fanciest stuff is RnD'd by the military for scrounging details out of a seemingly confusing background. Then it seems as if bread and butter communications industries like the telephone industry picks up the ball and pushes things forward. I get the impression that music and sound for picture audio gets what's left. You also have things like math/engineering students and researchers, astronomers, medical imaging and all the other folks that do sampling. But interestingly, it seems that only in the audio world is digital sampling considered "controversial" in regard to any theoretical or practical limitations.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 13:14:18
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There is no intent, on my part, to criticize the notion of intellectual property.
I am speaking of the idea that it might be helpful to have a clearer understanding of when and how we encounter it. I don't expect any one to volunteer the info, but I do think I'd find value in a greater awareness if someone made such info available.
all the best,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 13:16:14
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drewfx1
mike_mccue
With regard to dsp, I think the fanciest stuff is RnD'd by the military for scrounging details out of a seemingly confusing background. Then it seems as if bread and butter communications industries like the telephone industry picks up the ball and pushes things forward. I get the impression that music and sound for picture audio gets what's left.
You also have things like math/engineering students and researchers, astronomers, medical imaging and all the other folks that do sampling.
Yes, of course. Thank you for mentioning this. I was reading about dynamic convolution yesterday and one passage suggested methods of using it to enhance both MRI and Ultrasound interpretation. all the best, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2013/08/13 13:19:57
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Mesh
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 13:21:47
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Mooch4056
Who has the patent on Bapu?
(Sorry, I'm seeing dyslexic (again)).  I read it as.......Who is this patient Bapu?.......
Platinum Gaming DAW: AsRock Z77 Overclock FormulaI7 3770k @ 4.5GHz : 16GB RAM G.Skill Ripjaws X 250GB OS SSD : 3TB HDD : 1TB Sample HDDWin 10 Pro x 64 : NH-D14 CPU Cooler HIS IceQ 2GB HD 7870Focusrite Scarlett 2i4The_Forum_Monkeys
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 13:22:10
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drewfx1
But interestingly, it seems that only in the audio world is digital sampling considered "controversial" in regard to any theoretical or practical limitations.
All I know is that when the big EMI spray goes down, my Class A tube amps will still be making the sweet skiffle. Even if I have to use a couple car batteries for the B+. ;-)
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drewfx1
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craigb
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/13 16:53:14
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Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/14 14:58:26
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craigb
No.
Don't be so quick with your dismissal... Remember, patent is a virtue.
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craigb
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/14 22:25:46
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SteveStrummerUK
craigb
No.
Don't be so quick with your dismissal...
Remember, patent is a virtue.
 *PWF!* (Patent wettingly funny.)
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Jonbouy
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/19 14:33:00
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I think it's a problem created by consumers rather than the industry. Folk buy into propreitary technology long before they realise they've become locked into it. The best example we can see is iGarbage, there are plenty of volunteers prepared to turn up, enter into the corral just to get regularly milked. Even the limitless freedom that the Internet itself once promised is being squandered away by those prepared to buy into subscriptions provided by big business providing sanitized sub-sections of content that would likely be available for free anyway. I don't think the DAW market is too bad because it's at the bottom of the food chain, licensed technology has to be cheap and or accessable eenough for it to get implemented at all, it does mean however that you'll likely need to link more than one app via a proprietary technology or at least use plug-ins that communicate via another one. I don't think there is anything creative that I can think of WRT to making music with a DAW that is being held back these days, most people should be able to find a good fit out of everything that is now available. I don't think it's a business issue as much as an intrinsic part of humanity that likes the idea it's better to let someone in authority do it for them then pay them for the priviledge. It's much easier than thinking for yourself to donate $10 a month for a 'service' that's being provided for you. It seems like a fair trade that convenience comes at the price of choice.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2013/08/19 14:41:08
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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craigb
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/20 03:20:20
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Soooo... Where exactly is this coral where we can get regularly milked?
(I might be confused on the concept...)
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Jonbouy
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/20 05:59:17
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craigb
Soooo... Where exactly is this coral where we can get regularly milked?
(I might be confused on the concept...)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/corral Well, let me put it this way, say there is a Bouy already present on a forum that you decide to join, then imagine that he starts to leverage fees after you joined.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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craigb
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Re: Do you ever consider how DAW patents may be holding the end user back?
2013/08/20 06:07:14
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I've heard if you wear a fee and tax collar it keeps those away, ya?
(I may have misheard the commercial though...)
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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