I don't like to see Pedro portrayed as an anti-hero either, there is often some worth in the words he uses and while he may state some obvious principles at times and even be irritating to some with or without cause.  I will often find some wisdom within his messages which can sometimes serve as a good reminder and Pedro is also mostly agreeable as long as he's not being bashed into submission.

I like having him around.  He is certainly a creative thinker.

"The true artist or hero therefore is the one that stays nearest to his own most meaningful path with the least distraction, no?  The true artist does not create to impress nor to pass the time rather he brings into being that which is reality by sensing it as truth."


here's a good example: http://www.jackvettriano.com/


I don't think one can use the word "true" in the phrase "true" artists without explicitly revealing that one has decided that they want to use their own personal version of "true".

I could sit in front of a review panel and explain how paintings such as those of Mr. Vettrianno reveal truth as slice of life vignettes. One could mention that the sanitized appearance reflects the contemporary homogenization of all forms of styles. One could point out that the surreal deep depth of field effect is a comment on our inability to isolate ourselves from our surroundings. One could say a lot of things to explain this. I guess you'd have to decide if I was being "true" to myself?


I suggest that Pedro's confirmation that artists do exist as heroes and that artistic heroes make some sort of "true" art is actually a symptom of the condition that Starise mentioned earlier:

"There is a theory that goes like this: Idols/heros fill a gap in ourselves that is like God status. The "hole" that exists must be filled one way or another. We look for people to fill it and there are plenty of people willing to fill it. If we choose to deny existence in a deity,we only have ourselves and our heros. Both fail."


This actually goes to the root of the original question.

How does a member of the guild, someone who works behind the magic curtain, find them selves making art without understanding art's long held role in civilization?

The artists as hero myth is, as has been demonstrated in this thread, only approximately 200 years old. It's a very new myth.

Sophisticated art aficionados understand that the artist as hero myth is a construct, based wholly on society's greater interest in heroes. It makes sense that both artists and non artists will be effected by this construct. Take the example of Hayden mentioned above... he was both an artist and a citizen willing to accept a new hero.

This reflection on the notion of "artist hero" and the acknowledgement that they only appeared in our recent past is one reason there has been a broadening of art styles accepted in "fine art" circles... the need for art to be accompanied by an artist hero has been deprecated to a degree and indeed pundits that insist that art comes in "true" and less than true forms have begun to seem dated, closed minded, and simply pedestrian.

I'd suggest that the mentality that "true" art needs to be accompanied by a hero is now considered good packaging for the shopping mall while open minded aficionados of the arts have broadened their appraisals liberally.


all the best,
mike

I got distracted by the disco ball.

Still am.

best regards,
mike

"The notion that true artist as lauded by critical acclaim and popularity into a position of 'hero' is not mine."

Yes well, exactly... this exactly what the OP is about. If the notion isn't "mine", yours, his, or hers then who's is it and why would an artist, of all people, accept the constraint that there is a choice between heroic art and mundane art?

It's sort of an open ended question.


best regards,
mike

That's what I like about you... you know how I think.

And I like how you think.

:-)





I made some art once:

http://news.google.com/ne...J&pg=5679,10218617

I remained anonymous because the men in black came looking for us. :-)



We installed them at midnight on Christmas Eve. There was one on every road into town... sort of like a surprise present for every body. They looked exactly like Dept of Transportation signs because I had the specifications book and we matched the spec, so it took a few days for people to figure out what was going on.

We started a dialog... and we moved on to the next project.

Heavy thoughts, dude.

You might be thinking a little too much, though.

Why not just sit back, relax, put on a CD of 'Twisted Sister' and float away as your subconscious captures every subtle nuance of their music.

tom1


Heavy thoughts, dude.

You might be thinking a little too much, though.

Why not just sit back, relax, put on a CD of 'Twisted Sister' and float away as your subconscious captures every subtle nuance of their music.

Not really.
 
This is natural for me, as I have been writing for 40 years, and have learned a lot from the inner processes, meditation, and dreams (specially) and what I write is 100% intuitive ... very much like dreams. With the slight side effect that sometimes it might not make sense, and writing it down like this is an attempt at clarifying the visuals.
 
I don't engage in "thinking" at all ... more often than not it is a wasted effort!
 
And Twisted Sister is not my taste ... I would likely put on a Klaus Schulze if I wanted to meditate, or Yeti for a long trip to the planets and back! Short trips are not for me ... I love trips ... not the idea of a trip in a 3 or 4 minute song! No drugs necessary, btw! Much healthier!

When y'all get the definitive committee based agreement can y'all PM me with the answer?

I can't be arsed to read all this.

But it's not mindless chatter or buffoonery.

You gotta give him that.

Bristol_Jonesey


This is like reading an analysis of "Tales from Topographic Oceans"

As I said, "I can't be arsed to read it all".

Moshkiae

...
"There is a theory that goes like this: Idols/heros fill a gap in ourselves that is like God status. The "hole" that exists must be filled one way or another. We look for people to fill it and there are plenty of people willing to fill it. If we choose to deny existence in a deity,we only have ourselves and our heros. Both fail."
...

This is a social falacy and not correct in my estimation. All studies of spirit and internal perceptual lead to an "individual path" and all "deities" have had their own path ... and yet, the one thing that we are not capable of doing, is looking and finding our own path ... we can only fail in the eyes of the society, because no one else has been able to do it ... and they love throwing stones at those who do!

Now you know why folks like Buddha and Jesus of Nazareth and many others have had a hard time, and in the eyes of their time and place, they did not succeed, but eventually they did in history and time.

You have to have that internal constitution and (sometimes) the definition, to help you ... and for music, this would be really important, but not something that a westernized society would allow to happen or be seen ... because millions will kill you for your difference. Or you can get it in a washed out and candle and crystal driven idea that you're hipper than I am with some new age bs!

My main point, is that the most creative and non-stop folks, are almost exclusively themselves and different and only beat to their own drum, not what you and I say or any society clamors to state!

Again ... this is not about me. This is about ... YOU ... and can you define that better?

Now you know why I think folks like Peter Hammill and Roy Harper or Bob Dylan (though not my favorite musician ever!) are so valuable ... instead of another crappy song about another **** or gun or maniac. But it doesn't mean that the latter are not fun to listen to.

Moshkiae-

  I  think the discussion can easily include several subjects, and honestly, I felt a little uncomfortable in relating artists to heros or combining the two because in most cases today it would be a stretch to tie the two together in a way that makes any sense from a concrete perspective.Artists IMO are no more heros than any other group of people,although potentially more influencial. Like many other things today what something meant 2000 years ago and what it means today are different in meaning. Any discussion of a collection of subjects back into history may hold similarity but will also be different in some ways.

  There are leaders and followers. Artists have been occasionally looked at like leaders because they do something in a different way and people want to go where the new things are happening. Under the surface the new is really the recycled old in most cases. Any challenge to a long standing tradition of any kind will find favor with those tired of the traditions or those wanting to change.So anyone doing anything different will gain a following from someone.The public resistance from those who are inclined to value and cherish the traditions will add further catalyst to the growing movement of a leader opposed to traditions.

 Sometimes there are far deeper reasons for a change like public oppression and loss of liberties. People are on the lookout for a "saviour". Someone who will help them have a better life. The reasons why many in America and elsewhere hold polititians to idol status. The fact that human nature is never content with anything no matter how good it is adds to this. A lot of people have been mislead.

 I think that my above statement concerning heros and deities brings out either the best or the worst depending. It is not pleasant for someone who denies a deity to admit that he/she/them is all that's left. The denial in a true higher power is admission that dependence on ourselves is all thats left,and this is depressing given the true nature of mankind. History proves that we are not really getting any better. We are what we are.

 In spite of all of the theories to the contrary even the best of us fail and are limited. The GP who is resistant to admission or even investigation into the alternative has no choice but to affirm other imperfect beings as heros/idols.

 If the "hole" is merely a theory,there would be no need to follow/need anyone or anything. Art conveys so many different things in so many different ways that at its very lowest it is a broader reflection of who we are and in its greatest use strives to convey, glorify and understand  what is beyond us.

 Like most other disciplines, Art seems to be leaned on for more than what it really is. IMO finding our own path is either an explanation to pacify,like junk food,or it is a real solution. It can be either one and either one will get you somewhere. Where that ends up depends on choices and the open mindedness required to find it. Unfortunately many people are content with junk food.If you bite the hand that feeds you what other options are there?

 
 

Actually both the words "Artist" and "Hero" (along with "Genius" and many others) have become so devalued as to be meaningless in modern Western culture as referential descriptor nouns.  Right up there with "Awesome"used as an adjective.  More's the pity, that.

I dunno, I guess I'm just a simple country boy who doesn't understand all this fancy talk or something. But it feels like a very little is being stretched a long way here.
 
I'd like to quibble with this particular point:

 
Starise


It is not pleasant for someone who denies a deity to admit that he/she/them is all that's left. The denial in a true higher power is admission that dependence on ourselves is all thats left,and this is depressing given the true nature of mankind. History proves that we are not really getting any better. We are what we are.

I don't beleive in a higher power, and I don't find that remotely depressing. Indeed, quite the opposite.