bandontherun19
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Do you use tempo maps?
We all use envelopes, most typically volume envelopes.
I've noticed, when I try to cover music that I love, I can't track it at nnn BPM? What happens is, I listen to the start, and I say yeah, it's at nnn BPM? And then you start the metronome? And after a short time? It's all off? And you try it again? And then it's all off...
And the reason is that "hit music" typically slows and speeds up? And they use it as a technique, just like panning, reverb, and delay, the song speeds up and slows down? DAMN THEM! It makes it really difficult to trace... The one I'm doing now goes anywhere from 120 to 116 BPM. And sometimes it speeds and slows gradually? And sometimes it seems to do so more abruptly :-( I tried to follow it for a few hours today and then said **** it, and used 120 (close) BPM. I may go back and try to map it once I get the drums programmed? To make it breath the way they did?
I'm just curious if anyone else uses or has considered "tempo maps." They are used to **** timing in places to add emphasis and feeling I guess? And in other places to speed things up to add intensity? When I do my originals, I set a BPM and stick to it, but this seems like an interesting technique, I'm wondering how many of you have used it, tried, considered it, or even know about it?
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Do you use tempo maps?
2012/03/03 22:09:00
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Nope.... no sir..... can't say that I have.
Hope that answers the question for ya.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Do you use tempo maps?
2012/03/04 00:24:28
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I use tempo maps all the time and actually get a bit annoyed when someone can't play to a click. As for your assumption that some of this is purposely done, in my experience, this is not the case. Most of the older stuff (especially if you are a classic rock fan, oldies, etc) was not tracked using any sort of click track. This means the stuff is going to drift all over the place. Most of the new music should lock right in though. If it doesn't, they either purposely created the click to speed up and slow down, or they just didn't use one at all.
Me personally? I rarely adjust speeds in my stuff. I will change my beats up and stuff, but usually I keep the tempo at the same speed. I have altered things a few times. Mostly though, when I slow something down in an end or something like that. But it really depends on what covers you're trying to attack.
For example, I just got an Oberheim sampling library a few weeks back. My Van Halen tribute band is covering Jump. I went to set up a template to learn it and record it for my head so I could get myself used to playing the keys and the guitars. What I found out is, they start at 130 bpm, drift up to 134, come back down to 130...and it's sort of all over the place. I know for a fact that Alex has said for many years "I don't need no stinking click" so it's safe to say this is just how the song was recorded.
But most of the newer bands you try to cover should lock right in for the most part. Then again, even today some are reverting back to old-school techniques and saying "screw the click!"
-Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Chappel
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Re:Do you use tempo maps?
2012/03/04 02:11:26
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I always have tempo changes, even if they're very subtle. My background is in Acapella choral music and I'm used to the flow of music. It's natural for musicians to speed up and slow down. I always try to make my music sound like it was played live instead of some guy playing along with a drum machine. Even when I used a drum machine I still had lots of tempo changes. When I have a stretch of music where I want the beat to be more constrained I still insert subtle changes in the tempo as shown in the image below. 
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bitflipper
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Re:Do you use tempo maps?
2012/03/04 12:26:17
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Big fan of tempo maps here, too. Usually it's a subtle effect, raising tempo by a couple bpm on choruses, dropping it back halfway on each subsequent verse. That's for pop and rock; for orchestral stuff I abandon all pretense of subtlety.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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markno999
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Re:Do you use tempo maps?
2012/03/04 13:32:00
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I use them all the time when doing covers. Without exception, all the songs that I cover have varying levels of tempo drift. Depending on the amount of drift, I will set the tempo every couple measures, every measure, or in some cases if the tempo changes quickly by the quarter or eighth beat. It is a pain but I think the results are worth it, giving a more natural overall feel and result. I don't usually turn on the metronome until I am about halfway through to see if there are any problems. You can usually see the beat pretty clearly in the waveform with older music (pre-2000). The overly compressed newer stuff can make that exercise more diffilcult if you are identifying the beats visually (which is how I do it). Use CTRL M or CTRL N to Set Tme To Now depending on whether you are using Sonar 8.5 or X1. Regards
post edited by markno999 - 2012/03/04 15:29:41
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spacealf
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Re:Do you use tempo maps?
2012/03/04 14:53:46
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I play sort of with the click. However, I am not a computer and don't intend to be one.
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dmbaer
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Re:Do you use tempo maps?
2012/03/04 14:55:14
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Part of the answer depends on a performers chops. Take a typical contemporary piece in which the tempo is largely constant. A virtuoso keyboard player will often lay down notes that are very fluid tempo-wise within the context of the constant beat.
At the other extreme, consider a solo piece created by a keyboard player of limited skill. That player may well be restricted to using step entry for tricky passages or need to do heavy duty quantization to get the basic MIDI data in place. I'm convinced the only way to make that kind of music sound non-mechanical is intense use of tempo mapping, with tempo changes every beat or even more frequently.
It's instructive (albeit labor intensive) to take a "classical" piece of music that you think has a fairly constant tempo and create a tempo map that follows the performance. You'll often see that the first beat of a measure is slightly longer than others to give it more weight for example, but you won't notice it when just listening, and possibly the performer wasn't even aware of conciously doing that sort of thing.
With tempo mapping used by someone who knows what they're doing, you can create a very sensitive and convincing performance of a track where the MIDI notes are exactly quantized ... not that I'm saying that's easy to do.
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jamesyoyo
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Re:Do you use tempo maps?
2012/03/04 16:10:55
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In orchestral, I use tempo maps like a crazed mofo.
In my other stuff, I will use them to just subtly lengthen a measure at the end of a break, where there is that anticipation of it starting up again.
One thing that I do love is a real drummed midi track where the tempo has a good .025 variation, so the snare and kick will slightly wander along a long 8-bar clip. Very convincing.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Do you use tempo maps?
2012/03/04 16:20:54
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The real fun starts when you use this type of feature the other way around and I bet many do not do this. And that is to record a fantastic live groove by someone without a click. Then extract the tempo map for that playing and re align the bars and beats of your DAW to that groove. So now your DAW follows the original groove and you can overdub and create new parts and they will follow the groove and feel of the original groove. (In my opinion this is the ultimate situaton and it's when any DAW sounds best by far)
BUT and I mean big but, the original groove must be killer and great. And tapping along and creating crotchet click tracks eg a cowbell or clave sound is NOT the way to go here as well if you are wanting to extract a tempo map. Reason is that any errors that you introduce are factored in. You will never be as good as the original groove itself.
It is also a painstaking operation to extract a tempo map. Some DAW's boast they can analyse the overall groove and create it but there will always be some manual editing as well. But you can do it a bar at a time rather than every beat especially if the groove is real steady.
This is also interesting to do not just on percussion grooves but on songs to get a real handle on how the tempo does actually flow over the course of a tune or song. Then you can apply similar tempo maps to your own material.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Philip
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Re:Do you use tempo maps?
2012/03/04 18:51:15
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+1 all! (Great thread Rob!)
I've done it all ... especially with orchestrals. Its been tricky!!!
OTOH, I think Yoyo's ".025 variations" (*micro-tempos*) comes standard with a lot of my Toontrack and beatz (beatscape) samples anyway.
The problem in 8.5.3 is that the map has to be 'tested' meticulously with many points redone. Things don't change-tempo at the precise points.
And oft then I'm 'playing evil tricks' to sinc instruments and MIDI's into their alloted tempos.
So yeah! I feel your frustration big time.
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