Does SONAR hate me? :)

Hi guys,

Well - I had to make the subject header catchy or you wouldn't want to read another annoying whine from a newbie about some MIDI crisis in SONAR! I'll start by saying I'm a HUGE fan of Cakewalk SONAR and I've been using it for years now. I'm really hoping that this "issue" I'm having will not force me to look at other sequencing software.

Ok - I'll give you the facts :

I recently purchased a Roland SH-32 synthesizer module. I hooked it up to my MOTU Microlite USB-MIDI interface, attaching the SH32 MIDI IN port to the Microlite's MIDI OUT Port 5. I'm using Cakewalk SONAR 1.2 sequencing software and I control all my sound modules with a Yamaha CS2X controller keyboard. The Roland SH-32 is transmitting MIDI information (the indicator lights flash on the Microlite and in SONAR) but absolutely no sound is heard - even though I've set up all the right channels in Sonar. The only way I can hear the SH-32 at all is if I set it to "Preview" mode, or go into "System, Local: ON, Remote: ON. I cannot record any MIDI data from the SH-32 into Sonar whatsoever. I have set the SH-32's MIDI Channel to "1" - which matches the Send and Receive Channel of my Yamaha CS2X controller keyboard and Cakewalk Sonar. When I attempt to connect both the MIDI IN and OUT of the SH32 to the Microlite's MIDI IN and OUT (Port 5) it begins to freeze, notes get stuck and it produces distorted jittering noise. I've tried thining out the MIDI sysex data stream in Sonar, only Note On/Off, Pitch Bend, Program changes are transmitted. I've set the MIDI Options in Sonar to "Echo On" every MIDI channel 1-16.

I know this longwinded description sounds like troubleshooting the Roland SH-32 itself, rather than SONAR - but the tech guys at Roland Canada have advised me to address the issue in the Cakewalk SONAR forums.. and the SH-32 appears to be working fine in other sequencing studio environments. The issue seems to be software related.

I'll give you some more information on my MIDI rig :

Microlite Port Assignments :

Port 1 : Korg Poly 800 II synth
Port 2 : Not used
Port 3: Yamaha CS2X controller keyboard
Port 4: Not used
Port 5: Roland SH-32 synth module

Roland SH-32 - MIDI IN connected to MOTU Microlite MIDI OUT - Port 5. When I attempt to connect the SH-32 MIDI IN & OUT to my Microlite's corresponding MIDI IN & OUT port - the MIDI notes get stuck, it freezes and the sounds distort. (in Cakewalk Sonar)

SH-32 System settings: Local: ON, Remote: ON, Thru: OFF, Midi Channel: 1, Clock: MIDI. I have set the SH-32 back to it's original Factory settings.

The SH-32 only plays when set to "Preview" mode or "Remote" - otherwise it's silent.

Ideally, I want to set up a system where I can play & control my Korg Poly 800 synth, my Roland SH-32 and my Creative Lab's Audigy SoundFonts from my main Yamaha CS2X controller keyboard. I want to be able to record MIDI from each of these sound sources in SONAR and hear them all independently. I can record any of my Yamaha CS2X and Korg Poly 800 tracks flawlessly into SONAR - it works great. However, Soundfonts can not be recorded "live" as I'm playing (only if step entered in Piano Roll mode) and the Sh-32.. well, it just isn't happening at all.

Ok - by now you're as sick of this as I am! I'm a fairly experienced MIDI user and music producer so this whole thing is driving me up the wall. I've tried every possible combination of trying to make logical sense of this - and just haven't made any progress whatsoever. I have a brand new SH-32 sitting around collecting dust because I cannot utilize it.

I would be very grateful for any suggestions, random insights or guidance from the SONAR dieties.

Best regards,

Billy.

Thanks for the welcome - and the advice.

In the future, I will restrict my subject header lines to "just the facts".

Cheers,

Billy

Hey Billy & Welcome!
I can't remember how the midi is layed out in V1 but I use 15 midi keyboards/modules & soft synths on top of that. I know for me if I want to record one particular module/Keyboard from one of my Controllers, I have to input the Controller & midi channel to say track #1 input & then the output is actually the Module/Keyboard that I want to hear with the same midi channel selected....Now on Sonar 4 Producer there is an, "Input Echo" button that must be on for me to be able to hear what I'm playing from my Controller... I'll see if I can find my old Software to look at it as I just can't recall the way midi worked in that Version.....

Another thing to try would be to just plug your SH-32 midi out #1 to midi input #1 of your interface & out of your interface to the input of your SH-32. Then plug your controller into #2 input of your interface & see if your still locking it up??? I know I've been to Hell & back when I came back from a out of town session & somehow plugged the Midi cables wrong & it locked up every time!!! I know I can't offer a lot but it might help to start off seeing if your new Module is working correct!! NC Wildman

I would be very grateful for any suggestions, random insights or guidance from the SONAR dieties

I know that you think a catchy subject is important, but I'll bet you get more response from a more accurate one. We are a very technical group here --- you can edit it by clicking on the edit icon in the upper right hand corner of your post.

DC's kind of the resident make sure you have the most politically, technically properly spelled thread titles. I never have to ask questions in this forum. If I did I'd probably just go ahead and PM DCastle for aknowledgement that I had done it correctly so as not to have the accomplishment of asking a question, by perfectly explaining the problem and my system (which hardly ever happens around here but you did) blemished by the fact that I didn't write an approved title thread.

You have a different kind of setup than you so I'll politely move on and watch for the chaps that have the experience with the type of system you have to move in and help.

Good Luck

I've set the MIDI Options in Sonar to "Echo On" every MIDI channel 1-16.

I really don't remember S1 too well - wasn't there an "Auto" option for that? Tried that?

MIDI notes get stuck and hang perpetually, bizarro glitch noise spews forth and the SH-32 freezes up. It's almost like SONAR is transmitting way too much information to it for the synth module to handle.

I think of 2 things immediately
- Sometimes MIDI cables can be wired wrong and wreak havoc, try others
- MIDI feedback loop, I had that with the EMU Xtreme Lead when I tried to record sequenced drum patterns from that unit triggered by MIDI notes on the track, sounded like heavy machine guns in WWII, until it finally choked. That points back again to that Echo parameter ...

Of course it still can be that the unit is faulty.

If all else fails: record the sequence with another of your synths and assign the track afterwards to the SH-32?

EDIT: If you change the thread title to something with "SH-32 " in it - you may get actually responses from people who have that same synth ...

The only way I can hear the SH-32 at all is if I set it to "Preview" mode, or go into "System, Local: ON, Remote: ON. I cannot record any MIDI data from the SH-32 into Sonar whatsoever. I have set the SH-32's MIDI Channel to "1" - which matches the Send and Receive Channel of my Yamaha CS2X controller keyboard and Cakewalk Sonar. When I attempt to connect both the MIDI IN and OUT of the SH32 to the Microlite's MIDI IN and OUT (Port 5) it begins to freeze, notes get stuck and it produces distorted jittering noise. I've tried thining out the MIDI sysex data stream in Sonar, only Note On/Off, Pitch Bend, Program changes are transmitted. I've set the MIDI Options in Sonar to "Echo On" every MIDI channel 1-16.

Sounds like a classic feedback loop to me. Thinning out data if there is a data conflict will do you no good, thats not exactly the use of such a method.

You CANNOT (in almost every case) successfully operate multiple MIDI synths with a sequencer while any of the synths is set to Local On. The 'Local On' setting is what instructs your synthesizer to patch its keys/controls directly to its sound engine. This typically causes note doubling if the synth is also recieving MIDI instructions for note on/off. Additionally, if you have Remote On, you are allowing another synth or software MIDI instruction to make changes to the settings of that synth. Add the fact that you are echoing every MIDI channel, and you have a decent recipe for a MIDI loop.

You need to set any keyboard or hardware controller to local OFF. Also, set them all on discreet ports if possible, and if they are daisy chained then you need to enable the through port and designate channels for each to avoid note doubling.

However, Soundfonts can not be recorded "live" as I'm playing (only if step entered in Piano Roll mode) and the Sh-32.. well, it just isn't happening at all.

This tells me you do not have MIDI input from the keyboards correctly routed, only correctly routed to the output. Also explains why you had to set Local to ON to get sound.

I suggest a review of your settings on each synth, step by step, and refer to manuals if possible for explanations of each setting.

Hopefully this will be of some help to you. As a MIDI veteran I am doubtful that this issue is caused by Sonar based on the behaviors you have described.

EDIT: have you tested for MIDI activity on the OUT port of the SH-32? This would be a quick way to verify if the unit may have suffered a malfunction. Of course you would need to carefully ensure it is set up to transmit MIDI first.

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for your thoughtful advice - it's the best I've received yet. I am aware of the havoc that "Local On" can cause within a MIDI setup, however I resorted to it simply because it was the only way I could hear the SH-32 unit play at all. When I turn off the "Remote" and "Local" settings - there is simply no sound or MIDI recording capabilities at all. However, I'm going to give it another try this weekend - taking a long hard look at each element of my MIDI connections. I have a very simple setup and I refuse to be daunted by this annoyance!

I thank you all for your assistance. I've made a "Troubleshooting Guide" that contains all of your suggestions thusfar. Hopefully the next message you'll get from me is a joyous proclamation of MIDI triumph!

Billy

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The 'Local On' setting is what instructs your synthesizer to patch its keys/controls directly to its sound engine. This typically causes note doubling if the synth is also recieving MIDI instructions for note on/off. Additionally, if you have Remote On, you are allowing another synth or software MIDI instruction to make changes to the settings of that synth. Add the fact that you are echoing every MIDI channel, and you have a decent recipe for a MIDI loop.

You need to set any keyboard or hardware controller to local OFF. Also, set them all on discreet ports if possible, and if they are daisy chained then you need to enable the through port and designate channels for each to avoid note doubling.

However, Soundfonts can not be recorded "live" as I'm playing (only if step entered in Piano Roll mode) and the Sh-32.. well, it just isn't happening at all.

This tells me you do not have MIDI input from the keyboards correctly routed, only correctly routed to the output. Also explains why you had to set Local to ON to get sound.

I suggest a review of your settings on each synth, step by step, and refer to manuals if possible for explanations of each setting.

Hopefully this will be of some help to you. As a MIDI veteran I am doubtful that this issue is caused by Sonar based on the behaviors you have described.

EDIT: have you tested for MIDI activity on the OUT port of the SH-32? This would be a quick way to verify if the unit may have suffered a malfunction. Of course you would need to carefully ensure it is set up to transmit MIDI first.

Dave

I think you have written the best first post I have ever seen.

Way, way, way OT, I know; but I think losguy still holds the distinction for writing the best first post of any new forumite in this millenium. (Remember? It was about PCI latency. Wow, that was a post!)

Anyway. . . Carry on!

M