kennywtelejazz
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/28 02:48:39
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brundlefly
kennywtelejazz
Just opened up Melodyne for the first time in over 2 years and I'm absolutely lost and confused ...
The only thing I have ever done with Melodyne was to use the ARA conversion in SONAR by sliding a monophonic guitar or bass audio track over to a midi track to have it converted over to midi...
Any pointers on where I can find a way to learn how to do what you are suggesting me to do in Melodyne ?
Hi Kenny. I had never used Melodyne's stretching, either, but just checked, and if you right-click a Melodyne clip after enabling the Region FX, you can choose Region FX > Melodyne > Follow Host Tempo. Then just change the project tempo. And like Audiosnap, after you've got the project back to the original tempo, you can do the same to disable it on the original clips.
I'm going to do some quick listening tests and see how it compares to online and offline rendering with Audiosnap.
Thank You Dave , I'm gonna try that out ..just the way you said  On my own ( before this post of yours came up online ) I did get as far as enabling the Region FX , Melodyne did a conversion,since I hadn't change the projects tempo ..I think that's what made me feel stuck .... for anyone that is interested , here's an mp 3 audio example of what I have been trying to do .... on this clip I'm playing my 8 string guitar ...been using an 8 string guitar for less than 2 months there are no overdub / punch ins ...this is what I played ... disclaimer , the clip is a work file so it's totally dry using a static drum beat ...the guitar is is pretty dry and non e q 'ed ... this clip is in 3 sections , the first section is the target / converted tempo , the second section is the tempo I played at originally , the 3 rd section is an exact repeat of the target tempo ... http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13405315 all the best , Kenny
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brundlefly
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/28 03:00:09
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See the edit to my previous post for my verdict on Melodyne: Works and sounds great on a single track; not so great on a whole project.
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brundlefly
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/28 03:06:45
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kennywtelejazz
or anyone that is interested , here's an mp 3 audio example of what I have been trying to do ....
on this clip I'm playing my 8 string guitar ...been using an 8 string guitar for less than 2 months
there are no overdub / punch ins ...this is what I played ...
Yeah, Baby! Funkingruvin! Nice one, Kenny. Worth the effort. Keep at it. Three thumbs up.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/28 05:47:23
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brundlefly
kennywtelejazz
or anyone that is interested , here's an mp 3 audio example of what I have been trying to do ....
on this clip I'm playing my 8 string guitar ...been using an 8 string guitar for less than 2 months
there are no overdub / punch ins ...this is what I played ...
Yeah, Baby! Funkingruvin! Nice one, Kenny. Worth the effort. Keep at it. Three thumbs up.
+1 that groove is awesome.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/28 22:58:58
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brundlefly
EDIT: Quickie verdict: Melodyne is much more transparent than any Audiosnap/Izotope algorithm, especially when lowering tempo. Two thumbs up for quality. However... it took much more time (like 10 minutes vs. 10-20 seconds for Audiosnap!) to enable the Region FX on all the clips in a sizable project, even though I selected and processed them all at once as I would do with Audiosnap. I've never heard so much noise for so long from a hard drive in my life!  And even before I enabled Follow Project or changed the tempo, I gave the project a listen, and it had all kinds of sync problems, artifacts, silent clips or sections of clips, etc. So as far as I'm concerned, Melodyne's out for temporarily altering the tempo of a big project.
Based on that, I would say use Audiosnap - Clip Follows Project to slow down the existing tracks while you record the new on, but use Melodyne to speed up the new track when restoring the project to the original tempo.
Using melodyne on all the clips of a large project would consume a lot of CPU and memory since it does onset, tempo and pitch analysis. That's not the recommended use case. If you want to stretch a few clips however you can certainly do so and as you found the quality is better than AS rendering. Also it will render the stretches in realtime at very high quality.
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jackroller
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 09:05:00
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Sonar seems to be severely behind the times when it comes to warping. Audiosnap and Loop Constructor are clumsy and not very intuitive. Ableton's warping features are much better.
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Anderton
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 10:13:55
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Ableton's Complex warping algorithm, which is in the Standard and Suite versions, does indeed have comprehensive warping options. However with SONAR, Melodyne does an excellent job and the integration with SONAR via ARA is a plus. SONAR takes a more a la carte approach than many other programs, so it's not surprising that SONAR's ongoing partnership with Celemony is advancing SONAR's warp capabilities; there's no need for Cakewalk to re-invent the wheel, and people who don't need advanced warping don't have to pay for having it incorporated in the program. (Of course the downside of Live's Complex algorithm, or any stretch algorithm that maintains pitch while changing length, is artifacts; this is why many people use Live's re-pitch mode, even though pitch and time then become interdependent.)
The biggest problem with most warping is that although you can take something played freely and conform it to a tempo, you can't conform a tempo to something played freely except in SONAR and Studio One. This is because both of them have made it a priority to integrate ARA.
As to "clumsy and unintuitive," I'd hang that label on AudioSnap but not the Loop Construction window. If you want a simple solution to stretch something into a file capable of being looped, slip+stretch with DSP or using Melodyne are fast and efficient. However, the Loop Constructor has very deep and capable functionality. The price of that depth is it's necessary to study how it works. Once you do, it's pretty obvious. It certainly isn't any more complex that the way you create stretchable, real-time key-mappable loops in Sony Acid or with the Apple Loops SDK, and the Loop Construction window can also do Ableton's re-pitch functionality.
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brundlefly
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 10:38:04
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I've never used Ableton, so I Googled up a warping tutorial on Youtube. The demo linked below (by a 'certified Ableton trainer') does not seem conceptually that different from SONAR, and some operations are decidedly more fiddly than SONAR/Audiosnap. Also, I noted that he mentions several caveats and special cases. This also is no different from Audiosnap. It's a tool, not a magic wand, and works best in the hands of an experienced user. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsHnZUGl8yY This is a different use case from the current thread. In this case, he's just aligning the project tempo to a single fixed-tempo clip (not really what I would call 'warping', but okay). In SONAR, I would have used Set Measure/Beat At Now, and had a typical 4-minute song locked in a minute or two - no need to ever look at or mess with beat markers or tap a tempo or any of that - just listen, tab to transients, and tell SONAR where the starting beat and one other should fall in the timeline.
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jackroller
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 11:50:10
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Craig, thank you for that explanation. I had been misunderstanding how to use the Loop Construction view for some time, but after watching the tutorial again things are making much more sense to me. It's much easier to use than I originally thought. :) Anderton
you can't conform a tempo to something played freely except in SONAR and Studio One.
Would you expand on this a little? That's new to me.
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Anderton
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 12:13:24
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brundlefly
I've never used Ableton, so I Googled up a warping tutorial on Youtube. The demo linked below (by a 'certified Ableton trainer') does not seem conceptually that different from SONAR, and some operations are decidedly more fiddly than SONAR/Audiosnap.
That's because he's using the Beats warping algorithm, which is as you describe and very much like AudioSnap. However, the higher-level versions of Live now include a "Complex" warping algorithm. You can bring in something like a 3-minute pop song from the 60s that was not cut to a click, and end up with it conformed to tempo with very little effort. Traktor doesn't do warping, so I use Live's Complex algorithm to prep files for use with it when DJing. Yes there are artifacts, but they're less important in a DJ context than they would be in a high-fidelity SONAR project.
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Anderton
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 12:17:48
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jackroller
Anderton
you can't conform a tempo to something played freely except in SONAR and Studio One.
Would you expand on this a little? That's new to me.
Check out Page 5 in the March 2016 eZine. It's darn near magical...I was going to demo it at Sweetwater, so wanted to see how far I could "push" it and still have it work. I was shocked at how well it conforms the tempo map to your playing. The Studio One implementation is similar, but it's not quite as elegant as SONAR's. The only caveat is that even though you don't actually use Melodyne to make it happen, it does use the Melodyne engine so you need to set it to Percussive instead of Melodic mode.
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danam2
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 12:42:47
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As useful as Craigs and Noels tips are, they still sound like a workaround to me: Personally I switched from SONAR to Reaper a couple of years ago, then I switched to S1 when it was mature enough at about V2.6, the main reason was ARA. Although it was a close call to switch back to SONAR which also had ARA by that time. Now with the lifetime update I jumped the gun and I want to do my next project in SONAR again, just for the sake of it.... Although I have to admit that I thought "I got nothing to lose, AD2 and TH3 Cakewalk are worth the upgrade price alone". After trying and doing a lot of stuff in SONAR in the last couple of days I have to say that all these tempo-changing-features is the one department where SONAR has some major disadvantages compared to Reaper or S1. At least for me, YMMV. I'd like to explain in detail, maybe it helps to streamline SONARs version of doing these things. This is not meant as a rant:
Reaper has the easiest way of doing a tempo slow down and record/rehearsal to it. Period. The playback of the given material may be not as good as a Radius rendered file. But if you record at a slower tempo you will speed it up again afterwards. And since speeding up is not such a problem soundwise as slowing doing, the sound quality is good enough at least for bass and electric guitar. Never tried it with anything else I have to admit. Nevertheless this playrate feature is and has always been one of its major advantages to me.
Having said that the new Melodyne 4 (studio) is a HUGE step up when it comes to tempo editing. No doubt about it. Now S1 comes into play. Getting all tracks to follow the tempo map takes two steps: Make sure all audio events (=clips in SONAR) have a tempo in their right-click properties (may not always be the case) and in the track (!) inspector you have to activate "Timestretching", you may also chose another algorhythm. That can all be done with multiselect. Until this point you may do this with SONAR as well, although it is way more confusing with clip inspector, track inspector, the AudioSnap options there and its own window and how which option works where. One example: Why do I even have to bother with copying another clips tempo map to make "clip follows project" work for clips that have been imported after some tempo changes have been made? There is a global tempo map already, just use that one... Or did I completely misunderstand this?
Anyway, the real advantage of S1 is that you cannot only drop a Region-FX-clip to the time line so the melodyne tempo map will be copied (SONAR can do this too), but you have a tempo track directly in the arrangement window and you can select multiple tempo changes to drag them all up or down together. They will stay relative to each other. So as an example you have two tempos: 50 and 100. Now you select both and drag the second one (100 bpm) up to 150. Now the first tempo is 75 bpm. There is no way you can do this in SONAR, except for editing each tempo on its own. But that is no option with a melodyne tempo map that has a lot of tempo changes. The only way I found to mass edit tempo changes is "fit to time" but that is also just a workaround since the target value are bars or SMPTE, but not bpm or a playrate. Anyway, it is awesome that with Melodyne 4 you can now playback certain bars of a non-metronome-based track and use its own bar grid to create loops without having to mess with "where is the 1 in that waveform?". AND you can slow it down/play it faster that way, too . At least if you can mass edit tempo changes. It is sad that SONAR is not quiet there yet ;-)
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 14:10:20
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Thanks for the feedback. It make take awhile before you see this but we definitely have plans for improving tempo support in SONAR including stuff like a conductor track.
Regarding the melodyne tempo mapping support we actually have a pretty deep implementation that surpasses what the other DAW's do. Not sure if you are aware of it but we can extract tempos via simple drag and drop of audio clips to the timeline and it will also handle extracting tempos from multiple clips.
Mass editing tempos is not available yet but we'll consider it.
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brundlefly
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 14:49:33
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danam2
Reaper has the easiest way of doing a tempo slow down and record/rehearsal to it.
Easier than enabling Clip Follows Project and changing the tempo? I really have to think SONAR is a match for anything out there in both simplicity and quality if you combine using Audiosnap for the temporary stretching to slow down the existing audio and Melodyne to compress the new audio to the original tempo. So long as the project is a single fixed tempo, I seriously cannot imagine anything simpler in terms of the number of clicks/keystrokes or time needed; the steps to make the tempo changes should take significantly less time than recording the new part.
...you can select multiple tempo changes to drag them all up or down together. They will stay relative to each other. So as an example you have two tempos: 50 and 100. Now you select both and drag the second one (100 bpm) up to 150. Now the first tempo is 75 bpm.
SONAR's definitely overdue to have this and other tempo-editing capabilities.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 15:07:45
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brundlefly
danam2
Reaper has the easiest way of doing a tempo slow down and record/rehearsal to it.
Easier than enabling Clip Follows Project and changing the tempo?
I really have to think SONAR is a match for anything out there in both simplicity and quality if you combine using Audiosnap for the temporary stretching to slow down the existing audio and Melodyne to compress the new audio to the original tempo. So long as the project is a single fixed tempo, I seriously cannot imagine anything simpler in terms of the number of clicks/keystrokes or time needed; the steps to make the tempo changes should take significantly less time than recording the new part.
...you can select multiple tempo changes to drag them all up or down together. They will stay relative to each other. So as an example you have two tempos: 50 and 100. Now you select both and drag the second one (100 bpm) up to 150. Now the first tempo is 75 bpm.
SONAR's definitely overdue to have this and other tempo-editing capabilities.
I agree. I think Sonar is a match for anything out there. in the last 2 years with RX FX (Melodyne, drum replacer, vocal synch) Sonar really tipped the scale. I can do anything I can in any other daw out there. reapers tempo changing options, while they may be nice, reaper doesn't even compare to sonar. IMO, not even a close second.
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...wicked
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 15:25:11
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chuckebaby
I agree. I think Sonar is a match for anything out there.
in the last 2 years with RX FX (Melodyne, drum replacer, vocal synch)
Sonar really tipped the scale. I can do anything I can in any other daw out there.
reapers tempo changing options, while they may be nice, reaper doesn't even compare to sonar.
IMO, not even a close second.
Agreed. While Reaper's varispeed is pretty great (I keep it around just for that purpose) and I covet it highly for SONAR, it's other tempo features are incredibly cumbersome and worse than Audiosnap for ease of use.
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SquireBum
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 17:00:59
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brundlefly
danam2
Reaper has the easiest way of doing a tempo slow down and record/rehearsal to it.
Easier than enabling Clip Follows Project and changing the tempo?
Wasn't sure if the question was rhetorical or not, but the answer is Yes. If the default setting for Timebase has not been modified from Beats, you only have to change the tempo and you are done. -- Ron
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 18:30:32
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I'm very grateful too the forum members " in the know " that are here discussing their preferences regarding this type of workflow in SONAR while comparing it to other fully feature capable DAW's . Your passionate views and in depth sharing of workflow techniques are and have been very helpful to me A very big reason why I originally restricted "my personal comments to SONAR only " when I first started this thread includes and is based on something I have had to wrestle with for some time . SONAR has been growing super fast with all the new features and monthly added functionality that I'm getting left in the dust over here...lol ( Not here to argue my limitations .... yet, it's my fault ...not anyone else s )This is certainly something that has forced me to take personal responsibility too do something about it ... I went out and bought Eli's SONAR Platinum Advanced video from Groove 3 . Having done so started a positive chain of events . This may tie into something Craig mentioned about the loop construction workflow in SONAR ... Eli's chapters on that topic literally propelled me from the stone age where I was before into helping my inner SONAR light bulb finally go off ... I simply had no idea how advanced the loop view workflow in SONAR truly was . Also , I had no idea how much could be automated , nor did I comprehend how advanced and what type of time saving the functionality of the SONAR version of the loop construction environment could bring to the table . Thankfully , I'm learning my way around it BTW, All this ties into why I started this thread in the first place . Once I started getting comfortable learning and working in SONAR's loop construction view , I had the realization that I could finally create my own unique vocabulary of musical loops based on my style of guitar playing and musical ideas . Being able to record some of my guitar audio examples at the speed they can be played at comfortably is a nice motivation for me to get busy learning what needs to be learned over here at my end too accomplish that goal . Thank you all for your help . all the best , Kenny
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2016/06/29 18:53:57
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brundlefly
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 18:35:05
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SquireBum
brundlefly
danam2
Reaper has the easiest way of doing a tempo slow down and record/rehearsal to it.
Easier than enabling Clip Follows Project and changing the tempo?
Wasn't sure if the question was rhetorical or not, but the answer is Yes. If the default setting for Timebase has not been modified from Beats, you only have to change the tempo and you are done.
-- Ron
Thanks, Ron. I really did want to know how it could be simpler. I suppose if stretch-enabling all audio is the default, that would eliminate a step. But, just to be difficult (  ), that seems to contradict this post on the Cockos forum: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=324479&postcount=7 "Normally Reaper would never time or pitch alter audio when changing BPM. The only way this would happen is if the time base is set to "beats (position, length, rate)". The timebase can be set for each particular item (right click item properties), per track (right click track control panel), or per project (file menu project settings). Some media (like Acidized wavs) will get imported with time base set this way, so you will need to un-set the time base per item if you don't want them to stretch."
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SquireBum
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 20:05:56
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brundlefly
SquireBum
brundlefly
danam2
Reaper has the easiest way of doing a tempo slow down and record/rehearsal to it.
Easier than enabling Clip Follows Project and changing the tempo?
Wasn't sure if the question was rhetorical or not, but the answer is Yes. If the default setting for Timebase has not been modified from Beats, you only have to change the tempo and you are done.
-- Ron
Thanks, Ron. I really did want to know how it could be simpler. I suppose if stretch-enabling all audio is the default, that would eliminate a step. But, just to be difficult (), that seems to contradict this post on the Cockos forum:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=324479&postcount=7
"Normally Reaper would never time or pitch alter audio when changing BPM. The only way this would happen is if the time base is set to "beats (position, length, rate)". The timebase can be set for each particular item (right click item properties), per track (right click track control panel), or per project (file menu project settings).
Some media (like Acidized wavs) will get imported with time base set this way, so you will need to un-set the time base per item if you don't want them to stretch."
Dave, The referenced forum post was from 2009. I just did a clean portable install of version 5.211 (latest release) to verify that I had not changed the Project defaults in my installation. The Project Setttings dialog in the new install shows the Timebase for items/envelopes/markers set to Beats(position, length, rate). [see attached]  -- Ron
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Anderton
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/29 22:12:41
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I'm going to write the complete guide to variable speed - when to use it, when not to use it, and what to use when you do use it - for the next "Friday's Tip of the Week." Having used variable speed for half a century in all its permutations, from tape, to samplers, to creating Acidized libraries, to REX, to "faux REX," to DSP-based DJ-style stretching, I think I'm qualified Hopefully you'll find it at least interesting.
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brundlefly
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/06/30 01:43:17
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SquireBum
brundlefly
SquireBum
brundlefly
danam2
Reaper has the easiest way of doing a tempo slow down and record/rehearsal to it.
Easier than enabling Clip Follows Project and changing the tempo?
Wasn't sure if the question was rhetorical or not, but the answer is Yes. If the default setting for Timebase has not been modified from Beats, you only have to change the tempo and you are done.
-- Ron
Thanks, Ron. I really did want to know how it could be simpler. I suppose if stretch-enabling all audio is the default, that would eliminate a step. But, just to be difficult (), that seems to contradict this post on the Cockos forum:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=324479&postcount=7
"Normally Reaper would never time or pitch alter audio when changing BPM. The only way this would happen is if the time base is set to "beats (position, length, rate)". The timebase can be set for each particular item (right click item properties), per track (right click track control panel), or per project (file menu project settings).
Some media (like Acidized wavs) will get imported with time base set this way, so you will need to un-set the time base per item if you don't want them to stretch."
Dave,
The referenced forum post was from 2009. I just did a clean portable install of version 5.211 (latest release) to verify that I had not changed the Project defaults in my installation. The Project Setttings dialog in the new install shows the Timebase for items/envelopes/markers set to Beats(position, length, rate). [see attached]
-- Ron
Good enough. Just stirring the pot a little. Forgive me. I do it so rarely. Cheers, Dave
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danam2
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/07/01 11:51:33
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Thanks for the feedback. It make take awhile before you see this but we definitely have plans for improving tempo support in SONAR including stuff like a conductor track.
Regarding the melodyne tempo mapping support we actually have a pretty deep implementation that surpasses what the other DAW's do. Not sure if you are aware of it but we can extract tempos via simple drag and drop of audio clips to the timeline and it will also handle extracting tempos from multiple clips.
Mass editing tempos is not available yet but we'll consider it.
Thanks for the reply. It is highly appreciated. And a conductor track would be great. Although AFAICT it would be less work and already a great step up to have the ability to mass edit tempo changes in the tempo window and/or tempo list. May I hijack this thread for a little wish concerning the upcoming comping improvements (now that I got your attention...) : Would love to see an option that automatically deletes incomplete last takes after doing a loop recording. Because without a (shorter) punch loop area I always have a small incomplete take that unfortunately will be used in the comp. I have to delete that one or chose the last complete take to hear it. Would be a great little helper. Back on topic: I agree about the deep ARA implementation at SONAR. It is awesome.
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danam2
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/07/01 11:59:57
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brundlefly
Thanks, Ron. I really did want to know how it could be simpler. I suppose if stretch-enabling all audio is the default, that would eliminate a step. But, just to be difficult (), that seems to contradict this post on the Cockos forum:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=324479&postcount=7
The playrate feature at Reaper is not about bpm or the tempo map. It is a slider in the transport control where you can slow down or speed up the playback of the whole project from 25 % to 400 % . To keep the pitch there is a right click option. It is not only easy, in front of you and works without chosing clips and/or tracks (so no chance to mess it up...). It is also safe, because you don't have to touch the tempo list either.
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SMcNamara
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/07/01 18:22:42
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The Grim
or just do it in reaper with a couple of mouse clicks
Agreed. Plus, I seem to recall you can Rewire Reaper into Sonar, but whether the Reaper slider will work for this effect in Rewire mode, I've never tried.
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danam2
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Re: Does SONAR have the ability to preserve pitch for slowed down audio recording ?
2016/07/02 02:33:26
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SMcNamara
The Grim
or just do it in reaper with a couple of mouse clicks
Agreed. Plus, I seem to recall you can Rewire Reaper into Sonar, but whether the Reaper slider will work for this effect in Rewire mode, I've never tried.
Well, in a perfect world thay may work ;-) A rewire client is always the timing slave, so reaper follows SONAR. SONAR cannot be used as rewire client. MTC sync does not work reliable for this either. Then you better do it the SONAR way. Nobody said it ain't possible at all. It is just not as convenient and foolproof. The point is: Craigs tip #99 or loading the mixdown into Reaper is just fine as long as you only want to practice along or do just 1 or 2 overdubs. But when it comes to do a complete bass track at a slower tempo (as I had to do once) and you need a couple of takes per region you may get into trouble. Doing that all in Reaper (Logic also has this feature AFAIK btw.) is not optimal. You want to stay at SONAR for obvious reasons, don't you? ;-)
post edited by danam2 - 2016/07/02 03:08:57
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