Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!?

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caminitic
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2015/05/23 13:29:37 (permalink)

Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!?

OK so my mind was blown yesterday when I was talking to a few Nashville "pro studio guys" who said that almost ALL of the background vocals they do these days for demos/album tracks are simply Melodyne cloned lead tracks re-tuned to the proper harmony notes.  I obviously knew about using Melodyne for such a purpose, but didn't realize the prevalence of it.
 
Am I the only one still singing/syncing real harmonies these days?
 
And, related...if you ARE using Melodyne for "fake" bgvs, what is the best/quickest method for accomplishing that within Sonar (i.e. Melodyne in EFX bin, create Region FX, etc.)
 
Just curious!!! (And still shocked...).  Thanks in advance.
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    slartabartfast
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 13:32:51 (permalink)
    Wait a minute, I can see how you can create a harmony by retuning, and how that would be useful for harmonizing the lead or doubling the singer as a simple duet, but how do you change to a background arrangement. When did the background singers start to just sing the same words and arrangement/melody as the lead?
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    Lynn
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 13:35:46 (permalink)
    Yes!

    All the best,
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    gswitz
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 13:44:11 (permalink)
    I really only love different voices. The same human voice, even double tracked, just doesn't have the magic of 2 or more people doing it together.

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    Zargg
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 13:49:50 (permalink)
    Yes, I sing as good as I can each and every time (with very variable results), because I enjoy it Sometimes I use melodyne to experiment with bgv, or to tighten some words.

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    mettelus
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 14:03:54 (permalink)
    I guess it would work for situations where the words matched. Melodyne can do a lot of things with enough effort; but for a singer, they could get it done significantly quicker by simply tracking it (with better results IMO).

    I am not savvy with Melodyne for this reason. I do not want to invest time down a path that will make me complacent with challenging myself.

    Also with a "demo" this is less critical, so to the OP it may be more common than I realized.
    post edited by mettelus - 2015/05/23 14:10:48

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    joel77
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 14:22:49 (permalink)
    I record live vocals for melody, harmony and backing vocals. I've never been interested in "cheating" on vocals with Melodyne or any other such program. Like Mettelus, maybe that's one reason I'm not that familiar with Melodyne. But then, singing is my thing!
     
    Now, live(solo), that's a different story. I use a harmonizer pedal to give me at least some harmony vocals.
    post edited by joel77 - 2015/05/23 18:53:20

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    konradh
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 14:24:03 (permalink)
    I use humans for all background vocals and I use human voices for doubling (although I use Waves/Abbey Road Reel ADT sometimes for doubling).  Although I have no objection to Melodyne cloned voices, they do not sound the same as real voices—and obviously cloning locks you into doing nothing but exactly what the lead is doing.
     
    I do use Melodyne to tweak voices, however, because it is more efficient than multiple takes, punching in, comping, etc.  (You have to be well-practiced in Melodyne, though, to make it sound natural.)
     
    Note: I have an excellent female studio singer who can nail any weird harmony part I can write, so I am lucky.
    post edited by konradh - 2015/05/23 14:31:31

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    CSW
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 14:36:23 (permalink)
    Melodyne is excellent for  pitch and and other fine tune details but I try and use humans for most back ups and cloning. My girl is an excellent singer so I have a great vocal resource available at all times. 
    Cloning with melodyne is faster but there's something about the human element.  That goes for guitars as well.
    The timing issues can be more of a challenge to correct with human singers.
    Have you noticed how most every country song sounds the same these days.  There might be 2 guys writing all that stuff. 
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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 14:44:08 (permalink)
    Well and that explains why so much music that comes out of Nashville is so boring. 
     
    I still find it way faster to just sing a harmony. And because I can sing in pitch, I myself have not even loaded Melodyne to my new DAW set up. I don't like the registration process so if I do need a small tweak I use V Vocal still.
     
    I just bought a Harmonizer stomp box to use for my live show. It's a barrel of fun. It works great on a lot of songs for the chorus and accent harmony fills. You have to use it just so with taste.  I just might try it on a recording to see what happens. It was only $150 so a lot cheaper than the software versions. 
    I set it up with a Y cable at the input so my dry Vocals are in one channel and the wet in another. The more expensive models have the routing built in. There is a guitar input I drive from that extra output you get on a Boss Tuner. The harmony changes with the guitar chords. You have to play cleanly for best results. But these harmonizer dedicated hardware boxes are the way to go as far as I'm concerned. No fuss no muss. And I notice it helps me sing in pitch better as the harmony parts are never are out of key. Some units auto tune your voice on the fly. 
     
    http://www.ehx.com/products/voice-box
     
     
     
    post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/05/23 14:50:14

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    Keni
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 14:55:53 (permalink)
    I think they were "pulling your leg"... ;-)

    Yes, you can do this, but it's typically faster to get things right with a human performer...

    Either set of tools can get the job done as well as combinations from both camps... I find it always being dependent on who/what is available and needed...

    I do both/either for myself as well as clients...

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    sharke
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 16:27:31 (permalink)
    Nothing worse than tick perfect quantized backing vocals. I love when everyone's putting their own feel and timing into the harmonies, just listen to anything by Little Feat, some of those backing harmonies sound gloriously stoned and full of character.

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    vanceen
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 17:32:32 (permalink)
    Did you know that all The Band's vocals were done with an early prototype of Melodyne synthesis?

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    lfm
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 17:40:43 (permalink)
    Thinking of creating some voice that works for demos - and do with Waves Ultrapitch which has a 3 and 6 voice versions - just slide a voice to a harmony and alter formant, move in stereo fields and volume. Maybe do telephone type almost and just very lite touch of some harmonies with Ultrapitch, and try to cover with running an instrument doing vocal melody as well. Don't like the sound of my own voice.
     
    The things that Queen did was fenomenal, but also revealed on a documentary how much time they spent on fixing that, it was days. I don't recall, but they mentioned if it was dozens of overdubs to get that sound, experimenting like crazy with each others voices to see what goes where in harmony. And then it was tapes...
     
    Got this Sia album "1000 forms of fear" and where her voice is doubled, too many places, it doesn't sound nice. Not like ordinary double takes, which become fuller - but creates some artifacts which are not nice at all. Sounds a little bit like hired band live on cruising ship, with bad PA - kind of brittle vocal distortion - but just a fraction, but too much of that on the album. Here voice alone is good. Got a feeling this is some artificial dubbing, when so, or exciter gone bad.
     
    It sounds a bit like I tried to use Waves Aphex Aural Exciter on a femail vocal I hired, but always felt it sounded crap - haven't figured that one out yet, but read it should be good so I have to learn how to use it properly. Another day in the lab...
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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 18:00:34 (permalink)
    vanceen
    Did you know that all The Band's vocals were done with an early prototype of Melodyne synthesis?




    No, I didn't. Please explain. Digital recording just hardly hardly existed in the sixties.
    I think what the Nashville techs told the OP was exaggerated, to put it mildly. It's so common to have background singers of different gender, that it doesn't sound believable that "Melodyne bgvs" were something like a rule. Melodyne harmonics may be used on tracks practically as a rule, but not necessarily to create the main part of the bgvs using the verse/chorus bits. It's more believable that the bgvs are arranged and recorded separately, and then edited with Melodyne. This what I think. I know very little....

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    fireberd
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 18:08:57 (permalink)
    I can see them doing that now.  All the music, to an old traditional country musician, sounds like the same producer and same "A team" session musicians on almost everything that is now sold as "country" music.  (Sorry I had to say that). 
     
    I have Antares Harmony EVO and I've done a few songs using that to get harmonies.  But not many as it sounds too "perfect".
     
     

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 20:36:05 (permalink)
    Right on Jack, my feelings exactly. There are sooooo many studios in Nashville. And I bet 90% are only in it for the money and not in it to actually produce art. Many a fool of a wanna be musician still heads there to record with stars in their eyes. Welcome to Nashville, your money is more than welcome here, even if you can't sing and your songs suck, well make it sound like all the pro's. 

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    Jimbo 88
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 23:18:46 (permalink)
    There are some who actually sing background (and everything else also).
     
    This is a shameless plug,  but check out the vocal group my son is in.  You can see them in the current #1 movie in America... "Pitch Perfect 2" and #1 album on Billboard.
     
    Yes, They sing their background vocals..
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNAkI8KMHMU
     
    If you wonder about them doing "melodyne" go see them live!  They would love to see you.
     
     
    post edited by Jimbo 88 - 2015/05/24 00:31:17

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    olemon
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/23 23:48:56 (permalink)
    I figured out V-Vocal about the time Melodyne came bundled in Sonar, so I have yet to really get into Melodyne.  I clone the raw/comped vocal take and then run it through V-Vocal.  There are usually a few notes here and there that need a little help.  (V-Vocal seems to be less stable in Platinum, though.)
     
    Once that is done, I'll practice singing a harmony part(s) and if I like, I record.  But, with Nectar, getting some quick and decent harmonies is awfully easy.  I either automate a Send to Nectar, or I copy the vocal clips I want harmonized to another track and plug in Nectar.  In either case, I Solo the Voices in Nectar and try various combos/intervals.  After that it's just a matter of finding a fader balance that works.
     
    Having said that, there is no substitute for human harmony.  For oohs and aaahs, I guess I could sing those melodies too and then let Nectar harmonize them as well.  Hadn't really though about that until just now....

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/24 05:51:39 (permalink)
    Personally, I don't think any software solution is capable of introducing the subtle pitch & timing variations that are naturally captured when recording either a bunch of singers or overdubbing the same vocalist.

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    caminitic
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/24 11:00:16 (permalink)
    CSWThere might be 2 guys writing all that stuff. 

    No...you're totally wrong man.  It's 3 guys!!!! (Wish I was lying about that....)
     
    CSWHave you noticed how most every country song sounds the same these days.

    This is the frustration I battle on a daily basis...while at the same time my publisher tells me to "be original" and "write fresh and different"...if you haven't seen/heard this....it's worth a few minutes of your time...
     
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    caminitic
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/24 11:06:36 (permalink)
    KeniI think they were "pulling your leg"... ;-)

    Well...maybe they exaggerated a "bit"...but just the other day my cowriter was asked if he wanted to sing his bgvs or just "fly them in" from the choruses.  First time he had ever heard that before.  And he was recording his EP at the same studio that tracked Eric Church, Little Big Town, and other HUGE acts in town...
     
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    Paul G
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/24 11:37:56 (permalink)
    caminitic
    OK so my mind was blown yesterday when I was talking to a few Nashville "pro studio guys" who said that almost ALL of the background vocals they do these days for demos/album tracks are simply Melodyne cloned lead tracks re-tuned to the proper harmony notes.  I obviously knew about using Melodyne for such a purpose, but didn't realize the prevalence of it.
     
    Am I the only one still singing/syncing real harmonies these days?
     
    And, related...if you ARE using Melodyne for "fake" bgvs, what is the best/quickest method for accomplishing that within Sonar (i.e. Melodyne in EFX bin, create Region FX, etc.)
     
    Just curious!!! (And still shocked...).  Thanks in advance.


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    mettelus
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/24 18:08:30 (permalink)
    caminitic
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY8SwIvxj8o



    That was so incredibly well done! Without the video, people unfamiliar with those songs would definitely hear that as one.

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    Larry Jones
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/25 01:42:45 (permalink)
    Don't laugh: I've been listening to "hit radio" the past couple of months (it used to be called "Top 40," but I don't think their current playlists are that long) and I have noticed a trend among young female singers (Taylor Swift, Arianna Grande - you know the type) of multiple layers of absolutely perfect harmonies and doubling. The timing, phrasing, pitch and vibrato are so tight it's unbelievable. I don't think the modern listener is aware of what's going on, it's become simply de rigueur, the latest style for a certain type of song and singer, but the sound is inhumanly flawless. I believe it must be done electronically, with pitch shifting and vocal alignment. Can't say I like it, but it is awesome to imagine some little 20-year-old with that kind of ability.

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    AT
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/25 12:29:37 (permalink)
    Someone didn't show up for the background singing and the engineer did it.  So the producer asked himself do I pay for a chorus of singers or for editing?  Gee, such hard choices.

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    digimidi
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/25 13:37:34 (permalink)

    I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left... 
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    paulo
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/25 14:54:03 (permalink)
    Well I do them myself, but whether it could be called actually be called singing is another matter.
     
    Melodyne is a fantastic tool though and I do use it for minor tweaking. Cheating ? Yeah, but I'm subtle with it so you can still tell that I couldn't call myself a real singer if my life depended on it.
     
    Anyway, the way I see it is that just about all production is pretty much cheating really......
     

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    chamlin
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/25 15:22:30 (permalink)
    Always sing my background vox. Grew up loving the "perfection" of CSN and have spent years de-conditioning myself to allow more organic natural imperfection. While I still love the purity and tightness, I feel more real if I allow the variations of doubling prevail.
     
    The early Beatles doubling, at the time to my untrained ear, sounded so spot on, but later in life I was able to hear the "truth" of the recording more.
     
    That being said, so grateful for Melodyne as someone who looks just like me tends to go off pitch a touch. That I still can't bear. So...I guess I'm almost human.
     
    And, there's nothing like a beautiful blend of different voices that really resonate with each other. Best doubling and harmonizing, in my view.
    #29
    konradh
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    Re: Does anyone actually SING bgvs anymore?!? 2015/05/25 16:05:39 (permalink)
    The harmonies and doubling on this album are all sung.  The first song (Fifteen Minutes of Fame) has harmonies, but #2 (Bambicide) has 25 voices on the chorus.  You can hear layered voices in the bridge of the last song (Track #14), about 2/3 of the way through.  Some of the chords have some very tight parts (like a C# and D together).
     
    http://www.themightykonrad.com/
     
    post edited by konradh - 2015/05/25 16:14:37

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #30
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