ba_midi
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Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
This is a discussion/topic I've been meaning to bring up with some of the bright minds on this forum.
Does where you pan a sound have a different sensory "feeling"?
Let me explain ...
I get a very different feeling and perception when I mix a sound hard left versus hard right. For me, something "feels" different when a sound is on either side.
I don't mean "what's a good way to pan" ... no, that's not it at all. I'm talking about the "sense"/"feeling"/"perception" one gets of how something is affecting the user's listening experience (ie, the psycho-acoustic perception).
To clarify more ...
Sometimes I'm working on a mix and have a mono synth part (perhaps a pad or a rhythmic part) and decide to pan it. So first I pan it far left. Mix sounds ok. Then I pan it far right. Mix sounds ok -- but different.
I don't mean it sounds different just because of the way it fits into the EQ spectrum of a mix, but I mean it literally seems different in the way it makes me feel.
The actual mix would probably work just as well whichever side the synth was panned to, but having it on one side or the other does make a real sensory difference.
Does this happen to anyone else? (I suspect it does).
And if so - I wonder why?
Thoughts? Comments? I'm just crazy? LOL
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ChuckC
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 15:56:23
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Yeah I hear what you are saying. Though it works either way I tend to like the feel of my rythem guitars to the right & my more atmospheric or lead type parts on the left. It feels weird the other way around. I don't really know why? Could be because of hearing damage on my left side from high hats while playing the kit?
but anyway, yeah yeah I understand what you are saying.
ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's, lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's, DI's, Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t. http://www.everythingiam.net/ http://www.stormroomstudios.com Some of my productions: http://soundcloud.com/stormroomstudios
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 16:03:00
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It would be interesting to try to discover why one way or another makes a difference.
Again - I think most of us would understand there needs to be spectrum space for each part, and a balanced mix, etc -- but that's not the point here.
I suspect do you understand because, like you, I too seem to feel better about certain parts/instruments being in a certain stereo position.
Last night I was playing with this moody synth sound in a song. If I panned it to the left it just doesn't feel right. Panning it to the right did seem right. At least for this mix.
But I can't figure out why I 'feel' that ... hence this discussion. I'm really curious to hear if anyone has ideas on this.
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 16:08:49
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BTW, I prefer the ryt guits on my left LOL ... go figure ;)
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 16:11:17
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Everything is very much dependant on the sides, I believe, you quite simply hear it differently, when the sides are swapped, because few persons have two identical ears or eyes.
Also, for example, if you have buttons of almost similar colour, you see their mutual shade relations differently depending on in which order they're positioned in front of you.
Then there's, of course, the habits. If you're used to hearing an instrument in a certain position, changing it sounds alien.
Not mention the effect of acoustics.
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 16:30:13
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Kalle Rantaaho
Everything is very much dependant on the sides, I believe, you quite simply hear it differently, when the sides are swapped, because few persons have two identical ears or eyes.
Also, for example, if you have buttons of almost similar colour, you see their mutual shade relations differently depending on in which order they're positioned in front of you.
Then there's, of course, the habits. If you're used to hearing an instrument in a certain position, changing it sounds alien.
Not mention the effect of acoustics.
Thanks -- good feedback. I happen to agree with all of that... ie, there is more than one reason that creates the perception. Habit may be the biggest to some extent. For a number of years I was producing a pretty successful metal band (years ago) and the lead guitarist was always on the right and rhythm guitarist on the left. That may have forever changed my 'perception' of how things 'should' sound, perhaps. But also the point you made about our ears hearing differently may play as big a role.
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ChuckC
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 18:24:26
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For me I think it's because in my truck, the speakers are in the door well below my ears, I hear the right speaker from across the truck better than the left speaker which is hitting my calf... thus I hate it when a lead comes in on the right and the rythem seams to lose it's azz. So I want rythem on the right, leads on the left... I know. It's a stupid reason!
ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's, lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's, DI's, Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t. http://www.everythingiam.net/ http://www.stormroomstudios.com Some of my productions: http://soundcloud.com/stormroomstudios
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tvolhein
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 18:35:53
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I think that there is probably a personal preference, but I agree with something that ChuckC said about hearing loss. I had my hearing tested so that I would know where I was having difficulty. I was a bass player for 20 years and stood on the hi-hat side of the drummer and got an ear full of cymbals in my right ear. Luckily it isn't severly damaged, but there is some hi-end hearing loss in that ear.
Tom
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 18:37:13
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ChuckC
For me I think it's because in my truck, the speakers are in the door well below my ears, I hear the right speaker from across the truck better than the left speaker which is hitting my calf... thus I hate it when a lead comes in on the right and the rythem seams to lose it's azz. So I want rythem on the right, leads on the left... I know. It's a stupid reason!
Stupid or not -- the question is does the track "feel" different if they were reversed - and if you were in the studio listening rather than your truck?
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 18:40:06
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tvolhein
I think that there is probably a personal preference, but I agree with something that ChuckC said about hearing loss. I had my hearing tested so that I would know where I was having difficulty. I was a bass player for 20 years and stood on the hi-hat side of the drummer and got an ear full of cymbals in my right ear. Luckily it isn't severly damaged, but there is some hi-end hearing loss in that ear.
Tom
Well, Tom - sorry about the hearing loss (many people experience loss over the course of life anyway, as I'm sure you know) -- but I think I'm trying to find out if there is some ascertainable rationale as to why we, when producing/mixing music, decide a certain part/sound fits better (other than just for acoustic or spectrum reasons) because it is panned to one side or the other. I think we've mentioned a few possibilities, at least; but I just find it so curious when I do get this feeling about a certain placement.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 18:51:53
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Hmm this is a great question, Billy. I wish I could hear things as you do. I like to think I have some pretty good ears as well as perception...but to me, when I pan something...it just sounds like that instrument on one side or the other. The only thing I can say as far as my brain goes is...I don't like drummer perspective panning. I fix this immediately because it annoys me and just doesn't sound right. LOL! Hats on the left, ride on the right, toms panning from left to right....just sounds wrong to me. Yet, if I'm playing an E kit or my live kit...I HAVE to have it panned drummer perspective or I get so annoyed I can't record the track! LMAO! Now if anyone is crazy...it ain't you man, it's me! :)
-Danny
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timidi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 19:47:22
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Billy.
Iv'e noticed this for a while now. But, just chalked it up to improper room acoustics (which I really belive is the cause ). I have to force myself to put something on the right. It just sounds awkward. And yes, it is a feeling. If I had my way everything would be on the left:)
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Rain
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 21:10:06
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Intuitively, I expect the right side to be more prominent. I'm more inclined to attribute focus to it. Lead lines consistently end up on that side, to a point where I have to be careful about that. Left is rhythm, typically with less mid-hi/hi.
Recently, I was studying a mix, and when I realized that the lead guitar were panned left and it just felt "wrong" for some reason.
Wonder if it's related to seeing many bands with the lead guitar typically coming from the right side, or if it's just a projection, because I'm right-handed. Not sure. It's my "good ear", the one I trust, for some reason, even though, objectively speaking, both work equally well. It just always seems more open...
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montezuma
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 22:17:50
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Left to me feels like kind of snowy mountain morning, whereas right feels like....wait a minute...this isn't funny at all.
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Rbh
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 22:22:34
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Right brain - Left brain processing may have something to do with it. Extreme left or right processing of an instrument isn't a natural listening experience. It's more of a special effect which works well with electronic sounds - but I think it's kind of phoney sounding with an acoustic instrument. Remember early piano samples where the note groups were panned electronically.....those always sounded so bad to my ears I'd almost always take the stereo signal and collapse it into mono and let some reverb artificially smooth it into stereo. Funny listening to some of the beatles early stereo mixes with the bass extreme right and the drums extreme left. It's interesting to listen to now days...but would you really try to mix that way? I agree there's times when rhythm tracks just don't sound correct when panned hard. I remember early on always doing a chorus split on a mono guitar to try and fake some width...and I'd always go for dry signal left and chorused signal right.......it never sounded correct when reversed.
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 22:42:26
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Danny Danzi
Hmm this is a great question, Billy. I wish I could hear things as you do. I like to think I have some pretty good ears as well as perception...but to me, when I pan something...it just sounds like that instrument on one side or the other. The only thing I can say as far as my brain goes is...I don't like drummer perspective panning. I fix this immediately because it annoys me and just doesn't sound right. LOL! Hats on the left, ride on the right, toms panning from left to right....just sounds wrong to me. Yet, if I'm playing an E kit or my live kit...I HAVE to have it panned drummer perspective or I get so annoyed I can't record the track! LMAO! Now if anyone is crazy...it ain't you man, it's me! :)
-Danny
Danny - interesting ... like you I tend to not prefer drummer perspective panning/placement as well. But sometimes I do - just like you, again! There are some dance/house/techno records I love that use drummer perspective panning and when I try to do a track in that style without that perspective something sounds different. I'd even say wrong. So perhaps a big part of this phenomena of which we discuss here IS 'familiarity' (or 'habit' as was said earlier). But I definitely do "feel" something about how a sound is panned. And it seems to depend on what it is (ie, the type of part and sound). And, PS- if you're crazy, so am I LOL.
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 22:44:40
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timidi
Billy.
Iv'e noticed this for a while now. But, just chalked it up to improper room acoustics (which I really belive is the cause ). I have to force myself to put something on the right. It just sounds awkward. And yes, it is a feeling. If I had my way everything would be on the left:)
Heh, Tim it sounds like you have a very political room lol. For me it's not about my environment. I've tested this out in multiple environments. But perhaps for you it is. I dunno. Why not try turning around and see if the left or right works better then? ;)
post edited by ba_midi - 2011/11/03 22:53:59
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 22:47:36
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Rain
Intuitively, I expect the right side to be more prominent. I'm more inclined to attribute focus to it. Lead lines consistently end up on that side, to a point where I have to be careful about that. Left is rhythm, typically with less mid-hi/hi.
Recently, I was studying a mix, and when I realized that the lead guitar were panned left and it just felt "wrong" for some reason.
Wonder if it's related to seeing many bands with the lead guitar typically coming from the right side, or if it's just a projection, because I'm right-handed. Not sure. It's my "good ear", the one I trust, for some reason, even though, objectively speaking, both work equally well. It just always seems more open...
Rain, you're pretty much reinforcing the "familiarity" concept (ie, where we have simply gotten more familiar with sound placement based on previous listening experiences). And you're also confirming that there becomes a feeling about it. Is there such a thing as a "good ear" (assuming both ears are equally healthy)?
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 22:48:58
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montezuma
Left to me feels like kind of snowy mountain morning, whereas right feels like....wait a minute...this isn't funny at all.
Please pass the dooby 
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/03 22:52:56
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Rbh
Right brain - Left brain processing may have something to do with it. Extreme left or right processing of an instrument isn't a natural listening experience. It's more of a special effect which works well with electronic sounds - but I think it's kind of phoney sounding with an acoustic instrument. Remember early piano samples where the note groups were panned electronically.....those always sounded so bad to my ears I'd almost always take the stereo signal and collapse it into mono and let some reverb artificially smooth it into stereo. Funny listening to some of the beatles early stereo mixes with the bass extreme right and the drums extreme left. It's interesting to listen to now days...but would you really try to mix that way? I agree there's times when rhythm tracks just don't sound correct when panned hard. I remember early on always doing a chorus split on a mono guitar to try and fake some width...and I'd always go for dry signal left and chorused signal right.......it never sounded correct when reversed.
Yeah - I thought a lot about the "left/right brain" factor and I suspect it definitely plays a role; but I would submit it only plays a role based on how we 'feel' about the sound and where it is placed. As you mention, having the bass on the left and drums on the right (or visa versa) would sit pretty weirdly to my ears as it's unnatural. But that's why I said early on that I wasn't really concerned (in this case) with the acoustics, but I guess more with the psycho-acoustics. So is it, again, just our sense of familiarity and learned behavior listening experiences that gives way to these feelings (which lead to mixing decisions), or is there something else ... something more innate, so to speak?
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Rus W
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/04 05:28:27
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I may not be answering correctly, but if one is used to "preset" pans (as with EQs), anything different will feel different.
I think the stage visual has alot to do with it. If you're used to seeing a piano to the left where the sound moves right (into your left ear), then, it'll feel different when the piano is to the right with the sound going left (into the right ear)
If a string section is sitting left-center, which ear will pick up the waves? If they are sitting right-center? I'm talking pure acoustic - not amplified.
However, with amplified sound, it, for me, comes down to personal preference as with the aforementioned stage visual. As I said is often contrary.
The example, I gave earlier, at a function when the band played, they were hard right, but I was sitting hard left. Without the amplification, the audible instruments would lead the appropriate ear in the appropriate direction, If this were reversed, there wouldn't be a different as the closest ear follows the sound.
Generally, across tracks, I keep my pans the same. Also, note that some evoke stereo panning (doubled and panned equally)
Of course, one has to consider monitor setups with different systems even if it's the ones you mixed on because switching them around is essentially flipping the pans (ha!)
I actually had this happen once and wondered what was wrong as I went back into the DAW and reversed all pans when I just had to switch the speakers around. (ie: A hi-hat I had on the right came from the left)
Flipping the pans is something to do when messing around before setting the mix in stone or it's after it's completed. There may have been folks that made both tracks with flipped pans though. Nothing wrong with that.
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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bitflipper
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/04 11:54:54
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Yes, I definitely have preferences as to what should be panned where and how much. Just pull up a finished mix of your own that you really like and simply turn the headphones around. It will likely sound "wrong".
I try to ignore the effect because I believe it is an individual preference that doesn't translate to listeners in general. In fact, if I have a mix that sounds especially "wrong" when flipped around, it makes me suspicious that I may have unconsciously given in to my personal preferences to the possible detriment of the mix's translatability.
My theory is that one's ears do not have identical sensitivity and frequency response, and no two people have the same ear-to-ear differences.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/04 13:22:23
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bitflipper
Yes, I definitely have preferences as to what should be panned where and how much. Just pull up a finished mix of your own that you really like and simply turn the headphones around. It will likely sound "wrong".
I try to ignore the effect because I believe it is an individual preference that doesn't translate to listeners in general. In fact, if I have a mix that sounds especially "wrong" when flipped around, it makes me suspicious that I may have unconsciously given in to my personal preferences to the possible detriment of the mix's translatability.
My theory is that one's ears do not have identical sensitivity and frequency response, and no two people have the same ear-to-ear differences.
I was hoping you'd jump in here ;) Your comment about turning the phone around is definitely one way to prove out what I'm thinking ... but it seems you pretty much think it boils down to some difference of the left/right ears. I agree that plays a role indeed. But I still feel there's something more, at least for me. If it is mostly about that difference - so why would that matter so much? Would it change our "sensory perception" to such an extent? Last night (late) I was futzing around with just a test project (so I could explore this more) that had drums, bass, and one rhythm synth part (that I made sure to keep as a mono signal). I then did some parts so as to have music to test with. I then panned the synth hard right, then hard left. The actual "sound" of the synth doesn't change. But the feeling of the music does, depending on the pan position of the synth. IOW, the pan makes me have a different feeling as I listen to the playback. Could this all be due to the left/right ear differences? Hmmm I dunno.
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/04 13:23:34
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I think the stage visual has alot to do with it. If you're used to seeing a piano to the left where the sound moves right (into your left ear), then, it'll feel different when the piano is to the right with the sound going left (into the right ear) Rus, Yeah - I think this speaks to the 'familiarity' factor. I'm just wondering (aloud hehe) if it's related to one thing, or many things, that gives us a different sensory perception based on a sound's pan position.
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ChuckC
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/04 14:28:28
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Well then Billy.... find the pan position that makes you "feel" like dropping $20 bucks for the album and go with that one!
ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's, lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's, DI's, Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t. http://www.everythingiam.net/ http://www.stormroomstudios.com Some of my productions: http://soundcloud.com/stormroomstudios
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ba_midi
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/04 14:36:14
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ChuckC
Well then Billy.... find the pan position that makes you "feel" like dropping $20 bucks for the album and go with that one!
Haha, very funny :P I'd rather figure out how to make someone else drop 20 bucks ;) PS - I'm noticing you're enjoying your new found "phantom center" .... see how panning and placement can affect us?
post edited by ba_midi - 2011/11/04 14:40:30
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ChuckC
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/04 15:27:16
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We'll getting others to drop the $20 was my point of course!
And yes I am. Very cool. Ya know, I haven't even been at this a year yet (daw recording/project studio) and I am enjoying it soooo much. I find myself reading everything I can find, watching youtube videos, and hanging out here with every spare minute I can find.... Which is tough with the wife, 2 kids, my business, and the band all taking priority to recording research. As a 18 yr old kid I wanted to go to Full Sail for audio engineering but never did. I guess I always kinda liked it but I am really loving the challenges and each new epiphany is like HOLY CRAP!!! I want to find a local pro studio that might let me kinda be an upaid intern for some sessions and I could help with whatever they need in exchange for some tips, and knowledge. My business is going into it's slow season so I may check into that.
ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's, lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's, DI's, Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t. http://www.everythingiam.net/ http://www.stormroomstudios.com Some of my productions: http://soundcloud.com/stormroomstudios
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Rus W
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/04 16:32:52
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ba_midi
I think the stage visual has alot to do with it. If you're used to seeing a piano to the left where the sound moves right (into your left ear), then, it'll feel different when the piano is to the right with the sound going left (into the right ear)
Rus,
Yeah - I think this speaks to the 'familiarity' factor. I'm just wondering (aloud hehe) if it's related to one thing, or many things, that gives us a different sensory perception based on a sound's pan position.
Well, taking out the familiarity of it, was my other question answered? (By you, no.) What I mean is: Take Pan delay for instance - which can acoustically be done. The dry signal is left, but the repeated wet signal bounces from the right (or vice-versa). This can also be tweaked via decay and such an envelope to "roam" the pan frequency. Homemade delay of course is: "Monkey see, monkey do!" However, which ear picks up which wave from which direction? The piano, I spoke about earlier could in fact, be moved every five minutes (facetiously), but still the appropriate ear will go in the sound's direction. With the artificial delay (plugin/FX), the same is true. The left ear picks up the dry signals while the right picks up the wet ones or vice-versa! That's if they're panned pretty extreme. Even if they aren't. Or if it's just a very dry signal. Of course, you have to factor in that acoustically speaking each instrument played (strings for instance) has its own timbre. Using the strings, as individuals, they sound distinctive, but as a group, they still sound distinctive although we can tell that they're grouped because of the different timbre when playing altogether. If the ear is able to pick up the separate nuances (timbres), it knows which instruments are playing if all are or aren't. Of course, there's my favorite way to fool the ear which I do very often! To answer your question though: it's familiarity, but it's also proximity and placement (and it goes much deeper) at least that's my take on it.
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/04 16:51:27
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I know exactly what you mean Billy, if I've ever listened to a song where the signal to the speakers have somehow become inverted (it happens!), then to me the whole mix doesn't sound correct.
It's far more noticeable through cans or in the car.
It may have something to do with familiarity, but I think there's something else going on which affects our perception.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Does the LEFT and RIGHT Sides have a different FEEL for you?
2011/11/04 17:06:56
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Ears are like eyes, one will work 'better' than the other. Of course you or I don't usually notice it because we naturally compensate for the weaker side.
Last time I had my hearing tested which was a few years ago, now my hearing in my right ear was far worse than my left. Probably a result of years of firing rifles from my right shoulder, and also having a loud amp on my right side when playing in bands perhaps? Must make a difference.
I'm sure that sort of thing will have a bearing on any left or right preferences one might have.
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